I thought Wolverine didn't want to endanger children

**Meehl** · 05-06-2012, 03:51 PM

Originally Posted by remydat

Look dude, I don't care what bullshit marvel is trying to sell. Let's assume 616 and 1191 do not diverge until after Hope is dead. In that scenario then his going back to 616 would impact 1191. And guess what it doesn't matter. There will always have to be an original timeline in which he did not go back in time and Hope did kill a million people. The only difference is Bishop will not perceive it and you the reader won't read it because Marvel won't bother to show it. They will just for simplicity sake pretend it does not exist but it simply has to.

As for the whole two futures bullshit, either I mean infinity means just that. How is a machine going to be able to see all possible realities when there is no end to them? Again, I am fully aware it is a comic so they fudge a lot of things but I as a reader don't have to buy into the bullshit.

There's no reason to speculate. I thought Bishop's timeline definitely split from 616's history during Onslaught.

**ExodusCloak** · 05-06-2012, 03:55 PM

Originally Posted by remydat

Look dude, I don't care what bullshit marvel is trying to sell. Let's assume 616 and 1191 do not diverge until after Hope is dead. In that scenario then his going back to 616 would impact 1191. And guess what it doesn't matter. There will always have to be an original timeline in which he did not go back in time and Hope did kill a million people. The only difference is Bishop will not perceive it and you the reader won't read it because Marvel won't bother to show it. They will just for simplicity sake pretend it does not exist but it simply has to.

As for the whole two futures bullshit, either I mean infinity means just that. How is a machine going to be able to see all possible realities when there is no end to them? Again, I am fully aware it is a comic so they fudge a lot of things but I as a reader don't have to buy into the bullshit.

Well then you're not reading the series in the context it's meant to be read in if you refuse to listen to what Marvel is trying to sell you. No actually, it was explained in Fantastic Four 553, that timelines are quite robust and conserve itself. So him going back in time would not alter the timestream unless it was a large enough change, the timleine would just correct itself. If someone went back in time and tried to save Abraham Lincoln instead of him dying in an assassination he'd have died a few days later slipping on a bar of soap for example.

The same situation happened in FF 553, Future Reed said the reality became a loop.

If you refuse to read the story in the way it was intended to be read there's no much I can do. It's simple fact, they're telling you the story and you want to bring in your own pseudo science into it.

**remydat** · 05-06-2012, 04:23 PM

Originally Posted by ExodusCloak

Well then you're not reading the series in the context it's meant to be read in if you refuse to listen to what Marvel is trying to sell you. No actually, it was explained in Fantastic Four 553, that timelines are quite robust and conserve itself. So him going back in time would not alter the timestream unless it was a large enough change, the timleine would just correct itself. If someone went back in time and tried to save Abraham Lincoln instead of him dying in an assassination he'd have died a few days later slipping on a bar of soap for example.

The same situation happened in FF 553, Future Reed said the reality became a loop.

If you refuse to read the story in the way it was intended to be read there's no much I can do. It's simple fact, they're telling you the story and you want to bring in your own pseudo science into it.

When the story doesn't make sense then I will say it doesn't make sense. It is literature. It is meant to be read and critiqued and the problem with comics is you have writers writing stories that span 50 years and they are bound to fuck up. There are countless examples where one writer contradicts another. I did not read FF as I only read X-men but that theory on timelines just makes no sense in a multiverse.

Again, why would Abraham Lincoln need to die by slipping on a bar of soap when there are alternate realities? The whole reason for them being theorised is so that Abraham Lincoln is saved but he just ends up dying in a different timeline. Again, the timeline correcting itself is a vestige of a one reality concept of time. Over 40 years, what's happened is that various marvel writers have simply fucked up and some of them have written stories consistent with the Copenhagen Interpreation (ie one reality) in which timelines correcting itself, paradoxes, time loops, and big events altering the timeline make sense because you are dealing with a single reality. Other writers have written stories that factor in the many worlds interpretation which doesn't need timelines correcting itself, paradoxes, time loops, and big events altering timelines because in a multi-verse events just happen differently in different realities.

So no I do not think it was intended for all these convoluted time travel inconsistencies to exist. I think a lot of shit has been written by a lot of people and taken as a whole of lot of it is simply inconsistent with each other. You simply close your eyes to these inconsistencies and pretend it was all part of Marvel's big plan. I simply call bullshit and say it is crap when it is crap. To each his own.

**The Black Guardian** · 05-06-2012, 06:10 PM

That wasn't really is argument. A threat is a threat. Age is irrelevant. Besides, Logan knows that there is not a thing in the world that he can actually do to truly harm Hope. He snikted Rachel and nothing. He snikted Jean and nothing.

**mikekerrIII** · 05-06-2012, 06:32 PM

Originally Posted by The Black Guardian

That wasn't really is argument. A threat is a threat. Age is irrelevant. Besides, Logan knows that there is not a thing in the world that he can actually do to truly harm Hope. He snikted Rachel and nothing. He snikted Jean and nothing.

He just likes stabbing redheads,

**Regino** · 05-06-2012, 07:10 PM

Originally Posted by HXHAlex

He got mad at Cyke for teaching endangered mutant teens to be soldiers

Now Wolverine wants to kill a mutant teen. I don't understand his flip flopping on issues, and he owes Cyclops an apology. Wolvie is too idealistic, Cyke understands the world they live in and this situation is proving Cyke was right in Schism

I know it's hard, but stretch logic and you will find the answer. Wolvie doesn't want kids fighting. It's ok for Wolvie to fight. Wolvie is not a kid. It's all good.

**wolvie616** · 05-06-2012, 07:26 PM

Originally Posted by mikekerrIII

He just likes stabbing redheads,

Egads, you're right! Why didn't I see this before?! Of course! By killing all redheads, Wolverine hopes to destroy the Phoenix Force!

**Meehl** · 05-06-2012, 10:06 PM

It all stems from being rejected by Rose.

**ExodusCloak** · 05-07-2012, 05:00 AM

**remydat** · 05-07-2012, 05:42 AM

Originally Posted by ExodusCloak

You don't think Hitler thought he was saving the world from the Jews? You don't think the church thought it was saving souls when it burned all those witches and pagans at the stake? I am not sure what this proves except man's capacity to rationalise the evil they commit.

Should I feel sorry for the poor guy that wanted to kill a 5 year old while she played and then killed 9 billion people on the premise they don't exist ignoring that logic would also apply to whatever people he thinks Hope killed?

If someone survived Bishop's torching the planet and time traveled to search for him, would Bishop tell them don't worry those 8,999,999,999 you remembered living actually don't really exist?

**yanapryde** · 05-07-2012, 05:50 AM

Did Hitler think he was saving the world from the Jews?
(seriously, did he?)

**Drax1981** · 05-07-2012, 05:56 AM

I thought the Jewish people just made a convenient scapegoat because of they were outsiders in post WW1 Germany.
In fact, Hitler got a lot of mileage blaming other people for Germany's problems. Homosexuals, gypsies and people of non-Aryan descent didn't fare so well in Hitler's Germany either.

On topic, it is clear why Wolverine doesn't want kids trained to fight. It's so he doesn't get his ass handed to him when he tries to kill them.

**remydat** · 05-07-2012, 06:16 AM

Originally Posted by yanapryde

Did Hitler think he was saving the world from the Jews?
(seriously, did he?)

http://www.ess.uwe.ac.uk/genocide/statements.htm

You can read quotes in the above. Or read Chapter 11 of Mein Kampf. In short he felt Jews had inflitrated many world governments and were the reason for the Treaty of Versailles and the undermining of Christianity. He especially hated communism as he felt it was created (Karl Marx) and perpetuated by jews (Leon Trotsky). Anyways that is probably a discussion for another thread.

**yanapryde** · 05-07-2012, 06:20 AM

Originally Posted by remydat

http://www.ess.uwe.ac.uk/genocide/statements.htm

You can read quotes in the above. Or read Chapter 11 of Mein Kampf. In short he felt Jews had inflitrated many world governments and were the reason for the Treaty of Versailles and the undermining of Christianity. He especially hated communism as he felt it was created (Karl Marx) and perpetuated by jews (Leon Trotsky). Anyways that is probably a discussion for another thread.

Thank you sir. Sorry to derail, however temporarily.

Back to business: Wolverine is an ass hat. Lets hope by the end of this series he's booted from the Avengers and the Institute deems him unfit.