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  1. #76

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    Quote Originally Posted by wolvie616 View Post
    I swear to God, do ANY of you actually UNDERSTAND CHARACTER?

    Regarding Hope, Wolverine Explicitly had an ENTIRE ISSUE about telling Hope he was going to keep his distance from her, because if she went Dark Phoenix, he would be the one to kill her? Well guess what guys? The goddam Phoenix force is coming! Wolverine is making good on his vow.

    Regarding Utopia kids X Men Legacy, Avengers Academy, and Generation Hope all made it VERY clear that these kids view themselves as SOLDIERS. By bringing them to the Jean Grey School, these kids would have an opportunity to convince their friends to be soldiers as well, and join in on the fight against the Avengers. These kids would put even more kids on the field, which is exactly what Wolverine doesn't want. By keeping them at the Academy, he's making sure that both the Utopia and JG kids don't negatively influence each other, AND keeping the Avengers kids out of any real danger by having them talk to the Utopia kids.

    You all need to stop bitching about Wolverine being a hypocrite when Jason Aaronl, Matt Fraction, and Kieron Gillen have clearly had a character arc for Logan go on for the better part of two years, setting up these moments and decisions. We even see how much Logan is hurting inside in the Wolverine and the X-Men 9 and 10. Context of the Marvel universe is key. Wolverine's characterization has been consistent and clear throughout this event so far.
    I didn't say he was written out of character; I agree that his arc has brought him here. I'm saying that the character himself is a traitorous dick who has made Scott's life miserable at every turn. Scott, having his own issues, continually allows him to stick around due to the tactical advantage he often brings. Logan, the self-hating, self-involved prick that he is, has for years made decisions and taken actions that seek to destroy the friendship and/or respect offered to him by most people because he hates himself. This is especially prevalant with Scott because Scott has always embodied a character that is the opposite of what Wolvie has made himself to attempt to gain sef respect.

    Morrisson got this and it's evident in the Assault on Weapons Plus arc. Logan can't understand how a guy like Cyke has gotten the women and respect that he has, when Logan thinks he's a pussy. However, at that point Logan finally acknowledges his respect for Summer's abilities, made possible by Logan seeing Scott down and with crippling self doubt of his own.

    Post-Morrison, and definitely post Whedon, when Cyke starts to lose the self doubt (maybe he woke up one morning and thought "I lead one of the most powerful para-military forces in the world and bang unimaginably hot girls like its my job... Why do I doubt myself again?) then Logan became resentful of Scott, again, for having something he wanted and could never have.

    Almost all of Wolverine's X-Men career has revolved around him wanting what Scott has: Leadership, Jean, respect from his peers for influencing the species (the school), and finally the biggest one: self respect.

    Read this way, Logan is not out of character at all. I applaud the writers making him a traitorous dick attempting to murder another of Cyke's grandchildren (Tyler.) I'm just not sure why people don't see this rather layered portrait of a man with crippling self-hatred that projects onto the most successful male around him. (he's sexist too... Where's his hatred of Storm?)

  2. #77
    Forever Walker remydat's Avatar
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    This is a bit silly isn't it. I think kids should be protected too. Does that mean if I believe a 15 year old kid is going to murder me or someone else that I should not kill him? Wolverine has a general position regarding kids. However, that is in no way relevant to the question of what to do with someone who he considers a threat to a shitload of people's lives. For Wolverine's views on that please see X-force.

    Now clearly Wolverine has jumped the gun in that I think it was way too early to conclude Hope needed to die right now but to pretend his two views conflict is just ridiculous.

  3. #78
    Forever Walker remydat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dkostus View Post
    I didn't say he was written out of character; I agree that his arc has brought him here. I'm saying that the character himself is a traitorous dick who has made Scott's life miserable at every turn. Scott, having his own issues, continually allows him to stick around due to the tactical advantage he often brings. Logan, the self-hating, self-involved prick that he is, has for years made decisions and taken actions that seek to destroy the friendship and/or respect offered to him by most people because he hates himself. This is especially prevalant with Scott because Scott has always embodied a character that is the opposite of what Wolvie has made himself to attempt to gain sef respect.

    Morrisson got this and it's evident in the Assault on Weapons Plus arc. Logan can't understand how a guy like Cyke has gotten the women and respect that he has, when Logan thinks he's a pussy. However, at that point Logan finally acknowledges his respect for Summer's abilities, made possible by Logan seeing Scott down and with crippling self doubt of his own.

    Post-Morrison, and definitely post Whedon, when Cyke starts to lose the self doubt (maybe he woke up one morning and thought "I lead one of the most powerful para-military forces in the world and bang unimaginably hot girls like its my job... Why do I doubt myself again?) then Logan became resentful of Scott, again, for having something he wanted and could never have.

    Almost all of Wolverine's X-Men career has revolved around him wanting what Scott has: Leadership, Jean, respect from his peers for influencing the species (the school), and finally the biggest one: self respect.

    Read this way, Logan is not out of character at all. I applaud the writers making him a traitorous dick attempting to murder another of Cyke's grandchildren (Tyler.) I'm just not sure why people don't see this rather layered portrait of a man with crippling self-hatred that projects onto the most successful male around him. (he's sexist too... Where's his hatred of Storm?)
    I think part of the problem is Wolvy sees Cyke becoming more like him (Cyke creating the initial incarnation of X-force for example) without the accompanying self-hatred and self-loathing. Wolvy on some level understands the things he has done have damned him and he thinks that this New Cyke not only doesn't feel damned but in fact thinks he is a savior. He probably thinks doing the things they do without any guilt, remorse or conflict is a dangerous trait to have in a leader. And not saying this is how Cyke actually feels but that this is how Wolvy perceives him. He perceives Cyke as a demon with no self-awareness that he is in fact a demon while Wolvy recognizes he is a demon and hates himself for it but sees him being a demon necessary so that others don't have to go down the path he travelled. In many respects the fact Cyke has turned out the way he has from Wolvy's perspective is evidence that Wolvy failed in that endeavor.

    As for Storm, I don't think he sees in her someone who has embraced this role like Cyke has. He likely sees Storm as conflicted as well.
    Last edited by remydat; 05-06-2012 at 04:49 AM.

  4. #79
    Elder Member wolvie616's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Meehl View Post
    Did you post with a straight face? You don't think the Utopia kids are a danger of warring against the AA kids? What?
    I don't. Christos Gage as a writer wouldn't pull anything like that, and the AA kids sympathize with the Utopia Kids.
    Quote Originally Posted by mikekerrIII View Post
    And she is shown not to be out of controlas witnessed by her letting him and the rest of the Avengers live. He was supposed to make sure she was out of control first
    SO to keep the Utopia kids out of the fight, he made the AA kids their jailors? As you said the X-kids are soldiers and the AA kids are good but they are rank amateurs. Cap decided that the AA kids would make good cannon fodder. If cap had an objection to kids being in combat he would not have made the AA kids jailors and authorized force.
    I'm not arguing against this. This was Cap's call, not Logan's, to authorize force. Moreover, Tigra, Hercules, and Maddison Jeffries are there to act as buffer for any tension. According the AA 29 though, there's not that much tension between the kids
    Much of the JGS faculty and I believe much of the students would go to Cyke's aid without urging. Unlike Logan they do not want to betray their friends and virtual family Keeping the Utopia kids prisoners will not exactly encourage receptiveness and calm in their friends.

    Then the Avengers sends She-hulk and two arrogant dicks to the school seemingly to guarantee a fight since the idea that those clowns could stop anything is laughable. If you want to calm things down you do not throw gasoline into the fire
    I agree, but considering Logan was just thrown out of a plane by Captain America, I doubt that Logan authorized this as well. We've known for months that Wolverine wasn't going to stay with the avengers, so blaming their actions on him is little more than scapegoating. At this point, Logan is acting very much on his own, or eventually in alliance with Hope.
    You might be right, he may not be a hypocrite, but then he is just another psychopath with a murder fetish.
    I disagree. Historically, and even now, Wolverine has been trying to redeem himself for his past actions. A psychopath doesn't try to atone for his actions, even if at times he fails. It's his striving to be a better person that distinguishes him from the villains. Hell, that's the whole dynamic with Sabretooth: That in the end, what makes Logan better than him is Logan's attempts to save others. Let's also not forget how many lives Wolverine's saved over the years, or the times he's helped save the universe, or that time he singlehandedly saved the universe.
    Quote Originally Posted by dkostus View Post
    I didn't say he was written out of character; I agree that his arc has brought him here. I'm saying that the character himself is a traitorous dick who has made Scott's life miserable at every turn. Scott, having his own issues, continually allows him to stick around due to the tactical advantage he often brings. Logan, the self-hating, self-involved prick that he is, has for years made decisions and taken actions that seek to destroy the friendship and/or respect offered to him by most people because he hates himself. This is especially prevalant with Scott because Scott has always embodied a character that is the opposite of what Wolvie has made himself to attempt to gain sef respect.

    Morrisson got this and it's evident in the Assault on Weapons Plus arc. Logan can't understand how a guy like Cyke has gotten the women and respect that he has, when Logan thinks he's a pussy. However, at that point Logan finally acknowledges his respect for Summer's abilities, made possible by Logan seeing Scott down and with crippling self doubt of his own.

    Post-Morrison, and definitely post Whedon, when Cyke starts to lose the self doubt (maybe he woke up one morning and thought "I lead one of the most powerful para-military forces in the world and bang unimaginably hot girls like its my job... Why do I doubt myself again?) then Logan became resentful of Scott, again, for having something he wanted and could never have.

    Almost all of Wolverine's X-Men career has revolved around him wanting what Scott has: Leadership, Jean, respect from his peers for influencing the species (the school), and finally the biggest one: self respect.

    Read this way, Logan is not out of character at all. I applaud the writers making him a traitorous dick attempting to murder another of Cyke's grandchildren (Tyler.) I'm just not sure why people don't see this rather layered portrait of a man with crippling self-hatred that projects onto the most successful male around him. (he's sexist too... Where's his hatred of Storm?)
    Logan and Storm are best friends, and have been so forever. I don't see where you get this hatred of Storm.

    I also completely disagree with you here. Logan has been seeing Cyclops grow more and more morally grey, and the nature of their relationship has always been that Wolverine does the murdering so Cyclops can remain a "clean" man morally, so to speak.

    Of the things you listed that Wolverine wants, the only one he has wanted is Self-Respect. He's NEVER wanted the leadership role. This has been stated in X-Force and X-Men both. Even if he lusted after Jean, he's also the one that pushed her back to Scott in The Morrisson run. And Wolverine's actively trying to influence the species has been minimal at best.

    Has he been self involved? Only as much as the rest of us, or to be more accurate, only as much as the rest of Marvel's cash cows. Cylcops, Spiderman, The Hulk, etc. have all been equally self involved. You can't really call him out on that.

    As for Wolverine being self destructive, the whole point of the current character arc is him moving past that. There was that story where all of Wolverine's friends bring him out of depression in the Aaron Run, deciding to Run the JG School, taking responsibility as the Black Dragon, etc.
    Wolvie616 is Mozambiquey

  5. #80
    Elder Member ExodusCloak's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by wolvie616 View Post
    I swear to God, do ANY of you actually UNDERSTAND CHARACTER?

    Regarding Hope, Wolverine Explicitly had an ENTIRE ISSUE about telling Hope he was going to keep his distance from her, because if she went Dark Phoenix, he would be the one to kill her? Well guess what guys? The goddam Phoenix force is coming! Wolverine is making good on his vow.
    Except, Hope hasn't. And that is where Wolverine's logic falls apart. If anything Hope showed great control and restraint in AvX 2. Wolverine intended on murdering her before even arriving on Utopia to assess the situation.

  6. #81
    X-Gene Positive cookepuss's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by HXHAlex View Post
    He got mad at Cyke for teaching endangered mutant teens to be soldiers
    Now Wolverine wants to kill a mutant teen. I don't understand his flip flopping on issues, and he owes Cyclops an apology.
    I don't quite see the problem. Wolverine's "issue" with Cyclops had nothing to do with killing kids. If Franklin Richards suddenly went crazy, and only Wolverine was around to stop him, that kid would lose his head lickety split. Logan would shed a tear later.

    The real issue was that Logan didn't want to train the kids to be soldiers and nothing more. While he, like Xavier, believed that they should learn to defend themselves, he didn't want them to be actively put in danger. Scott not only doesn't have a problem with training the kids to be his little army, he's more than happy to send "the lights" out into the field where they could get killed. Wolverine would rather Danger Room test them at school and just let kids be kids.

    Basically, Wolverine's stance on kids is the same one Xavier took when he first formed the New Mutants. I'll train you. I'll educate you. I just won't turn you into active X-Men. You're kids. You deserve to grow up and do the things kids do. You deserve your childhoods. Sending you into battle will only get you killed.

    Logan didn't have much of a childhood. He knows what innocence lost feels like. He also feels that that he owes it to Idie to teach her that she's not a monster. He feels that she, as well as the others, shouldn't be used as some madman's tool in a war, which is basically what Cyclops has been preparing for. Logan wants to give them a shot at happiness, as much as anybody with an X can.

    I don't see Wolverine being a hypocrite here. The big picture is, if Hope goes all Dark Phoenix 2.0 then no kid will ever be able to grow up, mutant or otherwise. There will be no tomorrow for anybody. The kids at JGS, and the happy lives he wants them to lead, simply represent a small taste of what he's really fighting for. To stops her [Hope] dead in her tracks, however distastefully, would be for the greater good. The needs of the many outweighing the needs of the one.

    It's conjures up the old question. If you had a chance to go back in time and kill baby Hitler would you? Kill one baby and six million live. Let that one baby grow up to be a genocidal monster and not only do the six million die, but also their potential kids never get born. Now, we know how it turned out for the Holocaust, but Wolverine has a chance here to prevent similar destruction. Kill Hope now and 7 billion are saved on Earth alone. Let her live and Earth won't be the only cosmic Happy Meal on Phoenix's menu.

    Logan doesn't owe Cyclops jack squat. Cyclops is turning into Magneto. Worse since his action seem to be giving even Magneto pause lately. Logan isn't quite the dreamer that Xavier is/was, but he's got nearly 100+ years of experience under his belt. As the only X-Man, aside from Magneto, who's actually lived through the Holocaust happen first hand, Logan knows what's at stake. Kill one kid. Save millions or billions more.
    Last edited by cookepuss; 05-06-2012 at 06:35 AM.

  7. #82
    X-Gene Positive cookepuss's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ExodusCloak View Post
    Except, Hope hasn't. And that is where Wolverine's logic falls apart. If anything Hope showed great control and restraint in AvX 2. Wolverine intended on murdering her before even arriving on Utopia to assess the situation.
    It's a fine line though. Wait one day more and he might not get a second shot at her. Kill helpless baby Hitler now before he grows up and comes into power. Maybe Wolverine was jumping the gun since we don't know if Hope is really the Phoenix's intended host. Then again, maybe he knew just enough to make that call when it needed to be made. Everybody else's hesitation could cost them.

  8. #83

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    It would have been a great character moment and shown real growth since schism and his time as a headmaster if Wolverine had decided he wasn't going to try and kill Hope. The baby Hitler is a good example but not in the way you think, killing Hitler as a child is the evil and lazy way of doing things actually taking the time teaching the child about acceptance and equality would be a much better solution.

  9. #84
    Forever Walker remydat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DexterSinister View Post
    It would have been a great character moment and shown real growth since schism and his time as a headmaster if Wolverine had decided he wasn't going to try and kill Hope. The baby Hitler is a good example but not in the way you think, killing Hitler as a child is the evil and lazy way of doing things actually taking the time teaching the child about acceptance and equality would be a much better solution.
    The baby Hitler is not a good example though. First Hope is not a baby and Wolverine protected her as a baby. Second, Wolverine is protecting and teaching Evan ie Apocalypse. So I don't think this is a matter of Wolvy taking the easy way out. I think this is a matter of his fear of what the PF might do and not of what Hope the individual might do. If it was just Hope the individual then it might be different. Although again, I think having said that, he has still acted prematurely.

  10. #85
    X-Gene Positive cookepuss's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DexterSinister View Post
    actually taking the time teaching the child about acceptance and equality would be a much better solution.
    I don't dispute that nature VS nurture is a compelling debate. However, some people can't be taught to be good. Some people are naturally remorseless and emotionless sociopaths. Many serial killers had wonderful and nurturing upbringings. Whether it had to do with a chemical imbalance or defect in the brain, some of them were just "born bad".

    With the Phoenix ... It's certainly capable of bringing life and renewal. More often than not, it's usually just brings chaos and death though. Think about dog bites for a second. A dog bites a kid. Do you put the dog down immediately? No. If the dog has never bitten a kid, why would you? However, if the dog has bitten people before... The last thing you want to do is give that dog the chance to bit somebody again and possibly kill them. The dog would have displayed what courts would call a vicious propensity.

    In that sense, even though Hope has never "bitten" anybody before, being host to the Phoenix Force would still make her that repeat offender of a dog. The PF might be capable of great good, but it has a vicious propensity. Wolverine, being practical, would put her down before an entire universe gets bitten again.

  11. #86
    Elder Member mikekerrIII's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by wolvie616 View Post
    I agree, but considering Logan was just thrown out of a plane by Captain America, I doubt that Logan authorized this as well. We've known for months that Wolverine wasn't going to stay with the avengers, so blaming their actions on him is little more than scapegoating. At this point, Logan is acting very much on his own, or eventually in alliance with Hope.
    :ogan was involved in taking the Utopia kids to prison< that is eenough to start the War at both the JGS and at AA.
    Quote Originally Posted by wolvie616 View Post
    I disagree. Historically, and even now, Wolverine has been trying to redeem himself for his past actions. A psychopath doesn't try to atone for his actions, even if at times he fails. It's his striving to be a better person that distinguishes him from the villains. Hell, that's the whole dynamic with Sabretooth: That in the end, what makes Logan better than him is Logan's attempts to save others. Let's also not forget how many lives Wolverine's saved over the years, or the times he's helped save the universe, or that time he singlehandedly saved the universe.
    Even Nemesis recently single-handedly saved the Universe the PF has saved the omniverse. If you are trying to make up for past sins by repeating those sins, you are simply a psychopath
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  12. #87
    X-Gene Positive cookepuss's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by remydat View Post
    Although again, I think having said that, he has still acted prematurely.
    Possibly. The other side of the coin is: What if hesitating costs them everything? In killing her, you run the risk of being the guy who saved the world or the guy who goes around killing kids. It's a gamble. Risk a rebellion against the British and win... You're a revolutionary and patriot. Make the wrong call and lose the rebellion.... You're a terrorist and insurgent. Rock? Meet Hard Place.

    The problem here is that only Logan is willing to make the tough call. Everybody else is hedging their bets. The Avengers are insane to think that they can lock her up and control the circumstances. Scott is insane in thinking that past behavior isn't an indicator of future behavior. And, yeah, maybe Logan's a little insane thinking that the PF will jump into the next available redhead. (For all we know, the next host could be Danny Rand.)

  13. #88
    Elder Member mikekerrIII's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cookepuss View Post
    It's a fine line though. Wait one day more and he might not get a second shot at her. Kill helpless baby Hitler now before he grows up and comes into power. Maybe Wolverine was jumping the gun since we don't know if Hope is really the Phoenix's intended host. Then again, maybe he knew just enough to make that call when it needed to be made. Everybody else's hesitation could cost them.
    That boils down to "if an any doubt murder any threat", that sound like full blown paranoia
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  14. #89
    Veteran Member Slant's Avatar
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    Cyclops should just go to the JGG school and murder the mini Apocalypse. Wolverine would understand.

  15. #90
    X-Gene Positive cookepuss's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mikekerrIII View Post
    that sound like full blown paranoia
    Possibly, but I keep coming back to the dog thing. A dog bites you once and you stick a muzzle on it. If it breaks free of the muzzle and bears down on you again... Put `em down and in the ground.

    Phoenix went mad. Xavier put a psychic "muzzle" on it once before. It broke free and went on a rampage. Killing itself was the only option that Phoenix, with Jean's mind, saw in that moment. All of these tricks to keep the Phoenix Force in check don't work. It's a force of nature, the cosmos' biggest rabid dog. There's not a muzzle big enough to keep it in line.

    I don't doubt that Logan is being trigger happy. However, having seen it happen first hand, I think that he's the most qualified to know when sh** is going to hit the fan. Could he be wrong? Definitely. Could he be right? Definitely too. The scale is at 50/50 and Logan thinks, maybe rightly so, that it's starting to tip against them.

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