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  1. #571
    Former Lurker Old Sparky's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mikekerrIII View Post
    They are soldier in their own country (utopia) and that is where the were taken prisoner, that makes the AA a POW camp to them. they have every right to treat it as such and act accordingly.
    Utopia isn't a country. Its a man-made island where Cyclops and a bunch of mutants retreated to and declared themselves a separate nation. I could leave the shores of America also and declare a small artificial land mass my own nation, but its not going to be recognized.

    Quote Originally Posted by mikekerrIII View Post
    They believe they were taken in an act of War by an invading army, which is exactly what happened
    And internment camp for a prisoner taken in war is still prison.
    They're not a nation. If anything, I consider Utopia to be nothing more than a Waco, Texas situation with a bunch of fanatics holed up and resisting government authority because they don't want to recognize it. If they were a nation unto themselves, they should be invaded and "disarmed" as they're a large group of living weapons with some of them being the equivalents of WMDs. As such, they present a clear and present danger to the United States and should be dealt with. I think they've been allowed to puff out their chests and say what they want because it would look like more mutant persecution if the U.S. actively went after them... but just because they haven't doesn't mean that Utopia's declaration of sovereignty should be recognized.

    Quote Originally Posted by mikekerrIII View Post
    Rao and Madison have no call to either the obedience or loyalty to those kids, they work for the X-men but are not someone that the kids would have any reason to obey, especially any mutant who knew what they where and had done. the genocidal doctor and the crazy guy are not exactly figures of respect or trust.
    Right... the work for the X-Men who abandoned the kids. Without other authority figures present, it has to be assumed that either they will take responsibility for the children on the X-Men's behalf or they can be excluded completely. If they're not going to be responsible, then the kids certainly could not have been left under their supervision on the island... so why not bring them to AA? The reason they were brought to AA is not so that the Avengers Academy cadets could be prison guards, but because they're also a bunch of kids... and while the X-kids aren't allowed to leave, they aren't really prisoners (of war or anything else) any more than a minor held in police custody until parents come pick them up are prisoners. They're being detained; there is a difference.

    Also, "the genocidal doctor and the crazy guy are not exactly figures of respect or trust." Really?! Then why should they be trusted around children at all? Cyclops and crew are pretty irresponsible having them on the island (as well as Magneto, a known terrorist). And Cyclops himself hasn't been acting rationally, so I wouldn't call him someone to trust either. Maybe those kids SHOULD be taken away until they turn 18. Oh, and if they aren't American and can be considered adults in their home country, then they should be deported where they can be dealt with by the proper government. Dealt with for what? How about consorting with terrorists, genocidal doctors, and other "crazy guys"?


    Quote Originally Posted by mikekerrIII View Post
    Cap told the AA kids to stop the Utopia kids from leaving, its not like Tigra or Herc could do much about it if they tried. He said that they should contact the instructors but authorized them to use force thus making them combatants. A VERY dumb move at best. cap only succeeded in moving the fight and possibly adding recruits to the other side.
    Herc and Tigra couldn't do much? You do realize that Herc having lost his immortality doesn't mean he's merely mortal... right? He still has 3000+ years of combat experience and despite being portrayed as a buffoon can be quite clever with strategy... not to mention he's still very strong. Superhumanly strong. He's not on Thor's level anymore, but he's probably stronger than anyone else at the Academy. Yeah... he couldn't do much. Whatever.

    Quote Originally Posted by mikekerrIII View Post
    You might be the only person left that thinks that Utopia is not a nation, did you not read the conversions about the UN, the problem of charging the X-men and international law? None of those would apply if Utopia was somehow under the jurisdiction of the US since under US law there would have been many things they could be charged with. Cap has no more legal authority there than any other invading army does. the authority of SHIELD in Utopia is sole the authority of brute force, nothing else
    I'm pretty sure I'm not the only person. If the conversions... or did you mean conversations? ...you are referring to are between Cap and Iron Man, the international law problem could just as easily be interpreted as Utopia being far enough off the coast to be in international waters. That doesn't mean they have to recognize Utopia as a sovereign nation. It could just be considered a really funny-shaped boat as far as SHIELD is concerned. Even still, if Utopia were recognized as a nation, it is close enough to America's borders that SHIELD can and would be able to act there due to the threat to America (and the whole world) Utopia is presenting. They take actions outside of American borders all the time, and considering Captain America and Iron Man went to the U.S. government first with their findings about the Phoenix heading to Earth, they likely have the sanction of the government to do whatever Cap thinks it will take to get the job done.

    Quote Originally Posted by alf_to_the_rescue View Post
    Is Hercules not bisexual anyway?
    I don't believe there is any evidence to support that. Yes, there's been rumor and innuendo, but its never been stated that Hercules has any preference for men... however, he has repeatedly shown a strong preference for women.

  2. #572
    ❤ Walking with thee ❤ Ian Pressman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mikekerrIII View Post
    I guess you might want to research that a little further since the UK, Ireland and the US allow soldiers under the age of 18, In the US the only limit is that people under 18 can''t be deployed overseas to a combat zone. there is also no bottom limit on the right to defend self and country from direct attack. I know about the US law on the subject since I was in the Air force well before my 18th Birthday. And not caring that they see themselves as combatants is really dumb since they have no obligation to pay any attention to what their captor's believe.
    Stop cherrypicking. Full quote: The United Kingdom, which recruits citizens into the army who are under 18, clarified its position in an explanatory memorandum, stating that "whilst Army personnel under the age of 18 may continue to undertake a limited range of duties with resident units in Northern Ireland, they do not participate in activities in direct support of the civil powers; UK military personnel under the age of 18 are not deployed as aircrew; and in line with UN policy, personnel under the age of 18 are not deployed on UN peacekeeping operations".[5]

    Under eighteen UK soldiers aren't deployed overseas. Direct support of civil powers means they don't deploy against their own citizens either and are not deployed to support their government in case of invasion. Under 18 means you don't get to fight.

    Most international laws like the convention you quoted only apply to signatories, not to every nation on earth, that is why the US has never signed many conventions like the first two Hague convention and things like the land mine conventions. The only one that apply everywhere are the ones that cover crimes against humanities, Even your link says that it only applies to ratifying countries
    I'll concede that.


    And pretending that soldiers are not soldiers becasue you simply do not consider them so is foolhardy at best< since they will act on what they believe not on what you believe.
    No one considers them legal combatants, so they aren't legal combatants. Juveniles get the benefit of the doubt.


    They were never in positions of authority or responsibility over those kids, they were scientists who had their own little group. Because of who they are that is fairly silly an idea. Nobody with any legitimate authority put them in charge
    So a Substitute teacher has no authority to teach a history class, and no oversight over the students if the original teacher isn't available?



    If they are not a nation why is Cap struggling to find an excuse in international law to hold them with? If they were part of the US that would be unnecessary.
    Cap said they had no right to violate international law, he didn't say he was looking for an international crime to charge them with. He just wanted them held. Again, if this was a military action being undertaken against a foreign nation, he would not need permission to detain enemy combatants. But these are US citizens, and luckily in this country, Citizens don't get put behind bars willy-nilly.
    Last edited by Ian Pressman; 05-04-2012 at 09:51 AM.
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  3. #573
    Senior Member DurararaFTW's Avatar
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    What's all this under 18 crap? Most of these people are at least 18. Indra, Pixie, Transonic and Teon are probably the only 17 and younger in that entire group, and Pixie isn't even with that group. Newsflash, mutants don't go active until 13 at the earliest and it's been years since House of M when they stopped going active. This isn't about kids, this about the non X-men mutant populace in general.

  4. #574
    Pure Hellcatnip Lady_Alternate's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DurararaFTW View Post
    What's all this under 18 crap? Most of these people are at least 18. Indra, Pixie, Transonic and Teon are probably the only 17 and younger in that entire group, and Pixie isn't even with that group. Newsflash, mutants don't go active until 13 at the earliest and it's been years since House of M when they stopped going active. This isn't about kids, this about the non X-men mutant populace in general.
    Years our time doesn't mean years in continuity, though.
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  5. #575
    Former Lurker Old Sparky's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bladeofdarkness View Post
    except that, unlike Secret War, the victims of his aggression in this case are MUTANTS.
    and nobody cares what happens to mutants in the Marvel-verse.
    Yeah, the thing is, Cap believes that the Phoenix is coming to earth and will destroy everything. He wants to protect everybody by taking Hope into custody and taking her off the planet. That means he would be protecting mutants too. I don't see what Cyclops got so bent out of shape over. What's he afraid of? Why not just let Captain America take her off the planet but go with them? The Phoenix shows up and takes possession of Hope off the planet instead of on the shores of Utopia... if its actions are going to be benevolent to mutants and benign to everyone else, does he really believe that Captain America is going to restrict her from coming back? Does he think she could be restrained? Would he really believe that Cap would have her killed? If he does believe any of that, then he really has lost his grip on reality and shouldn't be trusted with any kind of leadership or position of power. I get the mutant distrust in the government, but years of experience have shown that Captain America is not the government... even when working for them, he'll do what's right over what the men in power would want. He proved this when he rebelled against the super hero registration act and was virtually assassinated on his way in to court to be tried for treason.

    Cyclops is acting irrationally, thinking the Avengers consider the X-Men "ugly stepchildren" and talking nonsense about "as soon as we have a messiah of our own" and they're going to take the messiah away. At this point, he's behaving like a religious fanatic... except instead of a comet which is going to whisk away the faithful, he's pinning his hopes on a nigh omnipotent force which has been corrupted in the past and devastated planets and whole civilizations. And there's no indication that Hope is any better suited to control the Phoenix Force than Jean Grey was... but Cyclops views her as a messiah anyhow. I wouldn't trust kids with him any more than I would have wanted David Koresh left in charge in the Waco incident.

  6. #576
    ❤ Walking with thee ❤ Ian Pressman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DurararaFTW View Post
    What's all this under 18 crap? Most of these people are at least 18. Indra, Pixie, Transonic and Teon are probably the only 17 and younger in that entire group, and Pixie isn't even with that group. Newsflash, mutants don't go active until 13 at the earliest and it's been years since House of M when they stopped going active. This isn't about kids, this about the non X-men mutant populace in general.
    The issue is over the legal rights of the children in custody, not about when the x gene goes active. This is hardly a police action against mutants, I mean come on.
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  7. #577
    Senior Member DurararaFTW's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lady_Alternate View Post
    Years our time doesn't mean years in continuity, though.
    I know that, but they've made a plot point of Pixie and Indra being the youngest mutant left after House of M with ease, and they aged them up quite a while ago already. Portraying it as there are dozens of mutant kids left is kinda throwing out the whole issue of why Cyclops is being crazy in first place.

  8. #578
    Former Lurker Old Sparky's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Daesim View Post
    But these are US citizens, and luckily in this country, Citizens don't get put behind bars willy-nilly.
    Not yet, anyway... but the definitions of what constitutes acts of terrorism seem to be broadening and its now legal for the authorities to arrest and hold people committing acts of terrorism indefinitely without giving them access to legal counsel or even a one phone call deal.

  9. #579
    Senior Member DurararaFTW's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Daesim View Post
    The issue is over the legal rights of the children in custody, not about when the x gene goes active. This is hardly a police action against mutants, I mean come on.
    Yeah, and they are less then a handful of kids in the group of people being charted of to AA. I'm not saying this is a police action against mutants. But 90% of mutants were at Utopia, only 20 people are actually with Cyclops' men that teleported away. Everybody else had to be kept an eye on and sent somewhere other then Utopia since Red Hulk damaged to the pillar. I get that. I don't see why everybody keeps making this about kids. Not every non X-men mutant is a child. You understand that don't you?

  10. #580
    ❤ Walking with thee ❤ Ian Pressman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Old Sparky View Post
    Not yet, anyway... but the definitions of what constitutes acts of terrorism seem to be broadening and its now legal for the authorities to arrest and hold people committing acts of terrorism indefinitely without giving them access to legal counsel or even a one phone call deal.
    Hrrr, that does suck.

    Quote Originally Posted by DurararaFTW View Post
    Yeah, and they are less then a handful of kids in the group of people being charted of to AA. I'm not saying this is a police action against mutants. But 90% of mutants were at Utopia, only 20 people are actually with Cyclops' men that teleported away. Everybody else had to be kept an eye on and sent somewhere other then Utopia since Red Hulk damaged to the pillar. I get that. I don't see why everybody keeps making this about kids. Not every non X-men mutant is a child. You understand that don't you?
    Then it's up to you to demonstrate that non-X-men adult mutants are being detained against their will. Avalanche and Frenzy live on Utopia but weren't involved in the fighting, therefore they aren't under arrest. Rao and Jeffries aren't being held against their will either. Which means the issue is about the age of the kids being held at the AA.
    Last edited by Ian Pressman; 05-04-2012 at 10:08 AM.
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  11. #581
    Elder Member mikekerrIII's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Daesim View Post
    Stop cherrypicking. Full quote: The United Kingdom, which recruits citizens into the army who are under 18, clarified its position in an explanatory memorandum, stating that "whilst Army personnel under the age of 18 may continue to undertake a limited range of duties with resident units in Northern Ireland, they do not participate in activities in direct support of the civil powers; UK military personnel under the age of 18 are not deployed as aircrew; and in line with UN policy, personnel under the age of 18 are not deployed on UN peacekeeping operations".[5]

    Under eighteen UK soldiers aren't deployed overseas. Direct support of civil powers means they don't deploy against their own citizens either and are not deployed to support their government in case of invasion. Under 18 means you don't get to fight.
    Except for overseas combat deployment the US has no such restrictions. And unless t Utopia signed that Optional convention it does not apply at all to Utopia

    Quote Originally Posted by Daesim View Post
    No one considers them legal combatants, so they aren't legal combatants. Juveniles get the benefit of the doubt.
    They consider themselves combatants and will act on it, does it matter what anyone else thinks?



    Quote Originally Posted by Daesim View Post
    So a Substitute teacher has no authority to teach a history class, and no oversight over the students if the original teacher isn't available?
    In this case it would be the school janitor and maintenance man who have no contact or authrity over the kids. Do you know those characters history at all?




    Quote Originally Posted by Daesim View Post
    Cap said they had no right to violate international law, he didn't say he was looking for an international crime to charge them with. He just wanted them held. Again, if this was a military action being undertaken against a foreign nation, he would not need permission to detain enemy combatants. But these are US citizens, and luckily in this country, Citizens don't get put behind bars willy-nilly.
    US law would make holding the easy. but it was under international law< which he seems to think applies, that he is having trouble.

    He would need permission or an excuse if he did not want to be seen as a war criminal and in violation of the UN charter.
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  12. #582
    Elder Member mikekerrIII's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Daesim View Post
    The issue is over the legal rights of the children in custody, not about when the x gene goes active. This is hardly a police action against mutants, I mean come on.
    This is a police action against mutants, at least from the mutants POV. One of a continuing series of such actions
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  13. #583
    Elder Member Hi-Fi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Old Sparky View Post
    I don't believe there is any evidence to support that. Yes, there's been rumor and innuendo, but its never been stated that Hercules has any preference for men... however, he has repeatedly shown a strong preference for women.
    Isn't it canon that he slept with Northstar?

    He's a bisexual semi-god. As he should. He's yummy, I agree with you, Old Sparky.

  14. #584
    Senior Member DurararaFTW's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Daesim View Post
    Hrrr, that does suck.



    Then it's up to you to demonstrate that non-X-men adult mutants are being detained against their will. Avalanche and Frenzy live on Utopia but weren't involved in the fighting, therefore they aren't under arrest. Rao and Jeffries aren't being held against their will either. Which means the issue is about the age of the kids being held at the AA.
    Frenzy isn't living on Utopia, she's picking a fight with the avengers at the Institute. And no, it ain't up to me to demonstrate that. You should be capable of grasping that when a population stops increasing, their average age starts to go up as the years go by. If you can't then I'm afraid that I'm just not goin to be able to help you.

    And the younger mutants being sent to AA doesn't equal mutants strictly below the age of 18 were sent to AA.

  15. #585
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hi-Fi View Post
    Isn't it canon that he slept with Northstar?

    He's a bisexual semi-god. As he should. He's yummy, I agree with you, Old Sparky.
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