Batman #9 Preview/Discussion SPOILERS

[TZDEKA]

It's not about canon, it's about what seems better to me. Alfred being there from the start is a lot better in my opinion.

Weighing down on the already grim and dark batman mythos with more grim and dark in his childhood and his ancestors is unnecessary and adds nothing. The owls dont seem any more threatening and i dont think that Gothic added anything to Bruce or his parents' characters. What would make the Owls more threatening would be to reveal how they controlled Gotham all this time, how they operate and what's at stake. At this point they just exist and kill random dudes and for some reason they got their feathers rustled. (see, i can make bird puns too)

I did however like all the work Dini put into the Waynes in Streets of Gotham.

I guess for me the issue is more if Batman himself becomes more grim and dark. So far, Snyder has seemed to temper the situation he's going through with with some hopefulness, I really like the Thomas Wayne quote that's been mentioned a few times as it encapsulates the importance of Bruce's parents to him in a nicer way than just "MUST GET VENGEANCE", so to me, making what they've had to deal with in the past darker isn't a bad thing. Also, I think it actually helps explain why Gotham is such a messed up place and highlights the weight and difficulty of Bruce's mission, which further highlights his inspiring qualities. That could change, but so far that seems to be how it's headed to me.

[zur en arrh]

Alan Wayne being senile doesn't change how absurd that scene was to me.

"Hey, Alfred, what do you know about owls?"
"I know they kill bats and then there's this really casual and irrelevant event that took place involving an owl obsessed member of your family who fell down a sewer drain."

...

And that's how all of Snyder's additions feel to me. It's not the act of adding things to the characters history, it's doing it poorly.

[ArnoldoAAD]

The Three Ghosts of Batman were actually entirely new.

they were based on other concepts too
the Cop Batman
the Bane/Monster Batman
the Devil Batman

I would hardly call them original but i do think most of the original concepts of Morrison came after RIP, like the Flying Batmovile and Prof. Pyg(which are extremely underused btw)

But lets be serious, I dont get why there is so much comparison of Snyder with Morrison, they have very different takes for it

[TZDEKA]

Alan Wayne being senile doesn't change how absurd that scene was to me.

"Hey, Alfred, what do you know about owls?"
"I know they kill bats and then there's this really casual and irrelevant event that took place involving an owl obsessed member of your family who fell down a sewer drain."

...

And that's how all of Snyder's additions feel to me. It's not the act of adding things to the characters history, it's doing it poorly.

I don't really understand what's absurd about most of the things you deem absurd, to be honest. Alfred knew because his family's been serving the Waynes for years and he's Alfred. But most people wouldn't know the contents of the crazed ramblings of their elderly relatives from generations ago, so Bruce not knowing made sense. So...what's absurd about it? The mere fact that it has anything to do with the Owls?

[tylenoljones]

Alan Wayne being senile doesn't change how absurd that scene was to me.

"Hey, Alfred, what do you know about owls?"
"I know they kill bats and then there's this really casual and irrelevant event that took place involving an owl obsessed member of your family who fell down a sewer drain."

...

And that's how all of Snyder's additions feel to me. It's not the act of adding things to the characters history, it's doing it poorly.

Exactly. I don't mind these details if they shed light on the villains or their motivations. 09 issues in, plus I don't know how many tie ins, and I still don't have a good idea what this whole night of the owls mess is about. These throw away details seem to be efforts to add weight to a story that doesn't have much substance.

Like a person telling you they're of Irish descent, as if that gives you any real information as to who they are as a person.

[TZDEKA]

I think the meaning is clear. It's supposed to make Bruce feel like this was totally under his nose and he never realized. It's also supposed to put an interesting spin on the relationship between Bruce and Dick by having their family trees reflect something bad in the past, even though they're personally thick as thieves.

[tylenoljones]

But lets be serious, I dont get why there is so much comparison of Snyder with Morrison, they have very different takes for it

I think it's just because of story similarities. There wasn't nearly this much comparison during The Black Mirror era, and that was when they were working on books simultaneously. Perhaps a bit of it could be attributed to us Morrison junkies needing our Bat-fix. I remember a lot of bickering over who was best during the beginning of Morrisons run, when Dini was on detective, but honestly, the Snyder dislike is all due to this story. His other stuff, his detective run, they were all received. This story has some issues, though. I think a shorter length would've solved a lot of these problems.

[TZDEKA]

Like I said, The Black Mirror has most of the same flaws and strengths as this story, I think.

[tylenoljones]

I think the meaning is clear. It's supposed to make Bruce feel like this was totally under his nose and he never realized. It's also supposed to put an interesting spin on the relationship between Bruce and Dick by having their family trees reflect something bad in the past, even though they're personally thick as thieves.

I get that, but let me give an example.

The recent issue, and the story about owls being let loose in the cave by Bruce's ancestors. What does that tell us, at all, about the court? The court didn't even reveal this information to Bruce.

Or the time when the Bat that inspired Bruce to become Batman was attacked by an Owl. These are recent examples because honestly i don't have older issues to go back and reference. But neither of these things say anything about the actual villains of this story.

I could see if Batman had been in operation longer than the court. You could view the symbolism as an intentional threat if it were an enemy responding directly to Batman's presence.

But that isn't the case. The threat is coincidental. The Owls eating Bats symbolism isn't intentional on the part of the villains. It's just there. If I were an actual, literal Bat in Gotham i'd be pooping my pants right now worrying about real Owls. But I don't see what's so menacing about the Court (compared to other Gotham villains, that is).

[tylenoljones]

Like I said, The Black Mirror has most of the same flaws and strengths as this story, I think.

I could see that, and I really can't say why I hold that story in higher regard. The art is a mark in the win column for both arcs. I personally prefer shorter stories, and i'm not a big fan of long epics. Parts of the Black Mirror, like Batman talking to whales, and holding his breath for an obscene amount of time, bothered me. The ending was a little flat. But the narrative tics Snyder has shifted focus because of the change in arcs and villains. He didn't have time to really just dwell on James Jr. the way he has with the owls.

[TZDEKA]

Well, I've already agreed that one of the problems would be what Retro said, that the symbolism is too on the nose at times. But I think those instances you mentioned, and indeed in general how it's been so far to my eyes, have definitely had some kind of meaning to them even if it wasn't directly related to telling us what's up with the Court. The Alan Wayne instance certainly did, because it foreshadowed the fact that he was right and the Owls actually were using his buildings as hideouts and were after him, so I don't totally get what your issue with that one is even based on your criteria of relevance to the Court on a more detailed level. But I think, from what Snyder has said in interviews, the manner in which they're supposed to be threatening is, above all, as a personal threat to Bruce's confidence. Bruce prides himself in knowing everything about Gotham and feeling like he understands it on every level, but now he's learned that this organization exists that has him beat on almost every level of connection to his city. So that's what's uniquely menacing about them. Same with James Jr., he's hardly the only crazy murder in Gotham, he's not even the most competent. But for Jim he was personally menacing because he represented an unsolvable case and because of their family ties, and for Dick he was menacing because he was devoid of the very things Dick prides himself on the most and he had singled Dick out for that very reason. So I dunno, I think it's been made pretty clear what's unique about their menace. But Bruce is obviously supposed to eventually(and he's already on his way towards this) say "Screw you guys, I'll take what I've learned about Gotham from you to make myself stronger" so it's not an airtight thing, they're the villains and they're gonna lose.

[TZDEKA]

I could see that, and I really can't say why I hold that story in higher regard. The art is a mark in the win column for both arcs. I personally prefer shorter stories, and i'm not a big fan of long epics. Parts of the Black Mirror, like Batman talking to whales, and holding his breath for an obscene amount of time, bothered me. The ending was a little flat. But the narrative tics Snyder has shifted focus because of the change in arcs and villains. He didn't have time to really just dwell on James Jr. the way he has with the owls.

Yeah, I think the fact that he broke the larger arc up into mini-arcs definitely helped Snyder in The Black Mirror. I'm just saying that besides that the "filler" issues that were mostly setting up the next ones, the weird dialogue, the beating you over the head with themes and metaphors at times? That was all there in The Black Mirror. So when people act like TBM was just phenomenal in every way and then turn around and complain about some of these things in the Court of Owls, I find it rather strange. But yes, it did most definitely help having other stuff like Tiger Shark's smugglers, the Joker, and the Dealer show up even though they were all part of the larger story about James Jr. At the very least, I think the pacing problems will be fixed when the Court of Owls story can be read in one go: I found that to be the case with The Black Mirror as well, the slower issues aren't quite as big a deal when you can just breeze right into the next big part. Though if you don't like long epics anyway, maybe reading the Court of Owls from beginning to end would only further diminish your enjoyment.

[BlueLily]

But that's not a "fact" in the first place, it's simply what we thought we knew. It's not like Dick now grew up in an environment like Damian's, pretty much everything we knew about Haly's Circus still stands, there's just a dark secret under the surface now.

And yet another plot-hole comes to light... How would the Court of Owls allow Tony Zucco to extort from and murder members from their Talon breeding program? And for that matter, would they really allow Bruce Wayne (where were their dreaded Talons then? They only had hundreds lying around... including Dick's grandfather) to adopt one of their potential assassins and just use the next guy available (and then end up torturing and abandoning him)? Are the Owls incredibly passive, or is this whole concept just completely contrived and terribly executed? I ask again, what makes the Court of Owls so frightening, again? Did Snyder give even a second thought to his idea or was he too busy devising incredibly ham-fisted monologues about owls preying on bats? Just embarrassing to read. The art is absolutely terrific though, it's a shame that it has to wasted on such an amateurish story.

The worst thing about that whole business to me wasn't Bruce investigating his parents death, but the fact that he used an investigation he conducted AS A CHILD to disprove the existence of the court in the present. That, to me, pushed the limits of what i could accept and was the exact moment this story started to go off the rails, in my mind.

Someone explained to me months back that it was because it was such a traumatic time period for Bruce, and something about him being emotionally unable to... eh, I don't even remember the rest of the argument. When people have to concoct weird justifications and speculate on why characters are doing what they do, it doesn't ring true.

Me too. I was on-board for the Court of Owls story up until about this point, and the entire narrative has just fallen apart. The constant praise is really puzzling... It's so sad that the entire Bat-line is essentially under Snyder's control now for a reign of unadulterated mediocrity and hack writing.... I'm out once Morrison finishes Batman Inc.

[TZDEKA]

And yet another plot-hole comes to light... How would the Court of Owls allow Tony Zucco to extort from and murder members from their Talon breeding program? And for that matter, they would just allow Bruce Wayne to adopt one of their potential assassins and just use the next guy available (and then end up torturing and abandoning him)? Are the Owls incredibly passive, or is this whole concept just completely contrived and terribly executed? I ask again, what makes the Court of Owls so frightening, again? Did Snyder give even a second thought to his idea or was he too busy devising incredibly ham-fisted monologues about owls preying on bats? Just embarrassing to read. The art is absolutely terrific though, it's a shame that it has to wasted on such an amateurish story.

Well I already got into why they're menacing, but presumably the Haly's Circus stuff isn't a huge deal to them, especially because at this point they can just revive the Talons they already have. And yeah, I think they honestly are kind of passive at this point. They were complacent for a while in their position, they started to feel threatened by Bruce's Gotham Initiative and thus "came back", but are overall the product of 400 years of feeling like the top dogs. It seems only natural they'd be incredibly arrogant and complacent at this point.

[Rud]

Snyder's just this kind of guy... everything has to be some kind of Conspiracy with this guy, its looking like these big bad Owls were behind the Wayne murders... but why?, cant it just be a random ass mugging gone wrong with Joe Chill, it shouldn't be some grand conspiracy.