Ultimately Off-Topic VI: Another Star Trek Reference

[Robbie_Jee]

For me, if the writing's not up to a certain standard, I can't carry on with the book. It's the same with games for me. If the gameplay's not there then I'm not going to be playing for very long regardless of how good looking it is.

Clearly a lot of posters here haven't heard of Bioshock: Infinite.


I don't agree with you Mr Plawsky, or rather I don't understand where you're coming from.

The only way I see how graphics adds to gameplay is when you compare the possibilities of 2D to 3D. But otherwise, I don't see how graphics adds to gameplay in any way. You mention physics within games. Well that's got more to do with the game mechanics than the graphics. I love good graphics, but the purpose they serve is solely aesthetic. So in that respect, I've gotta agree with Wyo on the fact that graphics DO NOT make good gameplay. I disagree with him that all shooters look the same, but other than that your comparisons only prove him to be more right.

[SuperKdon]

It does apply to them, I never said that it didn't. I've just been focusing on shooters because that's where I noticed it first. Here let me rephrase my question, don't you find it sad though that there are games in almost all the genres that look exactly the same?

What do you want from the developers? To reinvent the genre every time they make a new game?

[wyokid]

Clearly a lot of posters here haven't heard of Bioshock: Infinite.

I don't agree with you Plawsky, or rather I don't understand.
The only way I see how graphics adds to gameplay is when you compare the possibilities of 2D to 3D. But otherwise, I don't see how graphics adds to gameplay in any way. You mention physics within games. Well that's got more to do with the game mechanics than the graphics. I love good graphics, but the purpose they serve is solely aesthetic. So in that respect, I've gotta agree with Wyo on the fact that graphics DO NOT make good gameplay. I disagree with him that all shooters look the same, but other than that your comparisons only prove him to be more right.

pssst Robbie_Jee

http://forums.comicbookresources.com...1#post15174627

[Wolverine12]

First X-Men looks awesome. Wolverine pre-weapon x and nazi hunting Magneto in one book!!! Sign me up.

[Plawsky]

It does apply to them, I never said that it didn't. I've just been focusing on shooters because that's where I noticed it first. Here let me rephrase my question, don't you find it sad though that there are games in almost all the genres that look exactly the same?

Not at all. Any time something works, it's going to be emulated. I have no problem with that. It happens with movies, television shows, and music, too. There's a lot of great songs from the 60s by bands that were just trying to sound like the Beatles. Sure, there's also a lot of Beatle-wannabes that sucked because they didn't get it, but that's their problem. Without this emulation, the Monkees would never have been put together for a TV show, and they ended up putting out some fantastic records.

Similarities are inherent within genres. The fact that it happens is no reason to hold it against the rest of the genre. I'm not going to let Avatar's paint-by-numbers plot ruin science fiction movies for me, just like a Call of Duty knockoff isn't going to get in the way of my Halo enjoyment. And sometimes, when it's done properly, it's nice to see a new take on something very familiar. Rock Band was just Guitar Hero with a drum set, but it still became a better franchise.

I'm still wondering why a few offenders is by any means a reason to criticize the genre as a whole.


--

For the record, I don't consider any of the games that we've specifically mentioned to "look exactly the same." I know there are some out there, though.

[Plawsky]

The only way I see how graphics adds to gameplay is when you compare the possibilities of 2D to 3D. But otherwise, I don't see how graphics adds to gameplay in any way. You mention physics within games. Well that's got more to do with the game mechanics than the graphics. I love good graphics, but the purpose they serve is solely aesthetic. So in that respect, I've gotta agree with Wyo on the fact that graphics DO NOT make good gameplay.

I never said that graphics alone can make good gameplay. But they are a key part of gameplay. With the HD graphics capabilities that studios have now, they can perfectly mold the visual aesthetics of a game to match the rest of the game.

If Halo: Reach was using the Mii-style graphics from Wii Sports, it would not be a good game.
If Grand Turismo used Mario Kart graphics, it would not be a good game.
Conversely, if Mario Kart used Grand Turismo graphics, it would not be a good game.

The game HAS to be visually appropriate to work correctly. Mario Kart needs a cartoony look to fit in with the goofy, playful nature of the children's racing game. We overlook the bad graphics of Goldeneye and Halo 1 because we know that they come from a time when graphics couldn't be any better. But those graphics would not work in a current generation game that depends on great visuals.

[Plawsky]

First X-Men looks awesome. Wolverine pre-weapon x and nazi hunting Magneto in one book!!! Sign me up.

I'm definitely intrigued. But there's also a big possibility of this making everything 1000 times more confusing than it already is. And it looks like Sabretooth is going to be a founding member of both the X-Men and the Avengers thanks to consecutive retcons.

[wyokid]

First X-Men looks awesome. Wolverine pre-weapon x and nazi hunting Magneto in one book!!! Sign me up.

Instead of pointing out why that's terrible I offer you this.

[wyokid]

I never said that graphics alone can make good gameplay. But they are a key part of gameplay. With the HD graphics capabilities that studios have now, they can perfectly mold the visual aesthetics of a game to match the rest of the game.

If Halo: Reach was using the Mii-style graphics from Wii Sports, it would not be a good game.
If Grand Turismo used Mario Kart graphics, it would not be a good game.
Conversely, if Mario Kart used Grand Turismo graphics, it would not be a good game.

The game HAS to be visually appropriate to work correctly. Mario Kart needs a cartoony look to fit in with the goofy, playful nature of the children's racing game. We overlook the bad graphics of Goldeneye and Halo 1 because we know that they come from a time when graphics couldn't be any better. But those graphics would not work in a current generation game that depends on great visuals.

I'm sorry, but saying Goldeneye has bad graphics is bull.

[Plawsky]

I'm sorry, but saying Goldeneye has bad graphics is bull.

I assume you're being sarcastic, but it's tough to tell in text. By today's standards, it has bad graphics. So does every game on the N64. Or, at least, the games that are going for some kind of hint at realism (though, I could argue that Mario 64 would improve if using the same designs without being limited by 64 bit graphics). Sure, the graphics were great at the time, and I mentioned that, but they don't compare in any way to modern games. Really, the gameplay is pretty terrible by today's standards as well, because the N64 controller is awful for first person shooters.

Don't get me wrong, Goldeneye is fun as hell. But that's only because it was THE game when I was 10. If the game was released now in its original form, it just wouldn't work.

[wyokid]

I assume you're being sarcastic, but it's tough to tell in text. By today's standards, it has bad graphics. So does every game on the N64. Or, at least, the games that are going for some kind of hint at realism (though, I could argue that Mario 64 would improve if using the same designs without being limited by 64 bit graphics). Sure, the graphics were great at the time, and I mentioned that, but they don't compare in any way to modern games. Really, the gameplay is pretty terrible by today's standards as well, because the N64 controller is awful for first person shooters.

Don't get me wrong, Goldeneye is fun as hell. But that's only because it was THE game when I was 10. If the game was released now in its original form, it just wouldn't work.

They've released Goldeneye with updated graphics and IMO it actually looks worse. IMO Minecraft not only beats Skyrim in gameplay, but graphics as well. I'm a sucker for 64-bit and below. Mega Man 9 and Mega Man 10 look positively gorgeous.

[Robbie_Jee]

I never said that graphics alone can make good gameplay.

I know you didn't. Just that it can at times improve/help the gameplay. I just don't see how... yet.

But they are a key part of gameplay.

How?

With the HD graphics capabilities that studios have now, they can perfectly mold the visual aesthetics of a game to match the rest of the game.

Nah, I'm sorry but this doesn't really explain to me how graphics enhance gameplay. I do understand the importance of the gameplay matching the art style/graphics, but I still don't see how it actually "improves" the gameplay.

If Halo: Reach was using the Mii-style graphics from Wii Sports, it would not be a good game.
If Grand Turismo used Mario Kart graphics, it would not be a good game.
Conversely, if Mario Kart used Grand Turismo graphics, it would not be a good game.

None of these examples you've given actually enhance the gameplay. I don't see how Halo graphics enhance gameplay, how Mii graphics enhance gameplay or how GT graphics enhance gameplay. They provide aesthetic importance. Granted, I agree with how important it is for a development team to get the right look for a game and I also full heartedly believe that even the most aesthetic aspects of anything serve significant importance, just not to the gameplay itself.

I think you may be confusing graphics with gameplay mechanics such as physics.

[Plawsky]

They've released Goldeneye with updated graphics and IMO it actually looks worse. IMO Minecraft not only beats Skyrim in gameplay, but graphics as well. I'm a sucker for 64-bit and below. Mega Man 9 and Mega Man 10 look positively gorgeous.

Well, the updated Goldeneye was pretty half-assed. To make it look truly better, they'd have to literally recreate the entire game, but that would be a pain. But if you look at Halo Anniversary, it's a huge improvement, because they put in the appropriate effort.

Comparing Minecraft and Skyrim is ridiculous, though. They aren't meant to be compared, they're two completely different things. I agree that Minecraft makes good use of its graphics. But that's the point of the game. The Mega Man games work because they are made intentionally as a nostalgic call back to the originals. But that doesn't mean that all platformers should use 8-bit graphics.

This:


does not look better than this:



For a game like Mario 64, where realism wasn't important? Sure, I could see you arguing that the lack of detail and curves adds something to the game. I wouldn't agree, but I could see the campiness working for a kid's platforming game. But Goldeneye was using the top graphics of the time to achieve what was then realism. They even went so far as to put the actors' faces onto the game models.

Saying that old graphics are actually better than new ones is just false and a hipster mindset. It's all about utilization. Do you prefer watching movies on VHS to Blu Ray?

[wyokid]

Well, the updated Goldeneye was pretty half-assed. To make it look truly better, they'd have to literally recreate the entire game, but that would be a pain. But if you look at Halo Anniversary, it's a huge improvement, because they put in the appropriate effort.

Comparing Minecraft and Skyrim is ridiculous, though. They aren't meant to be compared, they're two completely different things. I agree that Minecraft makes good use of its graphics. But that's the point of the game. The Mega Man games work because they are made intentionally as a nostalgic call back to the originals. But that doesn't mean that all platformers should use 8-bit graphics.

This:


does not look better than this:



For a game like Mario 64, where realism wasn't important? Sure, I could see you arguing that the lack of detail and curves adds something to the game. I wouldn't agree, but I could see the campiness working for a kid's platforming game. But Goldeneye was using the top graphics of the time to achieve what was then realism. They even went so far as to put the actors' faces onto the game models.

Saying that old graphics are actually better than new ones is just false and a hipster mindset. It's all about utilization. Do you prefer watching movies on VHS to Blu Ray?

While I agree that it does look better, I prefer Goldeneye's graphics over...whatever that game is.

Certain films, the graininess adds to the film's tone and feel and can also add a touch of nostalgia.

[Plawsky]

I think you may be confusing graphics with gameplay mechanics such as physics.

Gameplay goes beyond what happens when you press each button on the controller. It's also how the player interacts with the content. Graphics and sound quality are very much a part of this, especially now that large TVs and surround systems are becoming more and more common. I'm not just talking about just talking about in-game mechanics.