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  1. #16

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    Quote Originally Posted by megavikingman View Post
    That's actually a terrible argument, it's flawed for several reasons:

    1. All of the characters he used were in the public doman, their creators having passed away long ago and any claims to rights were forfeit. He was not stepping on anyone's toes or taking advantage of anyone else's misfortune.
    2. None of those creators were encouraged to sign contracts that were specifically worded to take advantage of their trust. None of those creators were screwed out of the rights to their creations by technicalities.
    3. The world into which Moore placed those characters was entirely of his own invention. He built a world around them (loosely based off of historical Earth), he created the plot, he invented the challenges they faced. None of that is true of Before Watchmen: all of the characters will inhabit the exact same world and timeline Moore created, and the stories are based off of flashbacks and references to their past that Alan inserted in to the Watchmen book.

    As to all the characterizations of Moore as a crazy, bitter old man, if you've ever seen a video interview of him you'd know that they are patently false. He's always seemed a genial, intelligent, humorous old fellow to me.

    But then, so many people are so addicted to DC's characters that they'll gladly turn around and spit on anyone who badmouths the corporation, even the people responsible for actually creating the stories they love so much.
    I didn't disagree that he got a horrible contract, at all. I am not classifying him as a crazy old man either, but to me it's hypocrisy to be so critical of people using his characters when he used other people's characters. It doesn't matter if the writers are dead, I'm sure some of them would have objected to the directions he took them. Like the Invisible Man being raped to death by Mr Hyde. There just dead so they have no voice in deciding what happens to their characters. Couldn't this also be considered unethical?

    And I've more or less abandoned DC anyway.
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  2. #17
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    Default Before Watchmen controversy

    Quote Originally Posted by megavikingman View Post
    That's actually a terrible argument, it's flawed for several reasons:

    1. All of the characters he used were in the public doman, their creators having passed away long ago and any claims to rights were forfeit. He was not stepping on anyone's toes or taking advantage of anyone else's misfortune.
    2. None of those creators were encouraged to sign contracts that were specifically worded to take advantage of their trust. None of those creators were screwed out of the rights to their creations by technicalities.
    3. The world into which Moore placed those characters was entirely of his own invention. He built a world around them (loosely based off of historical Earth), he created the plot, he invented the challenges they faced. None of that is true of Before Watchmen: all of the characters will inhabit the exact same world and timeline Moore created, and the stories are based off of flashbacks and references to their past that Alan inserted in to the Watchmen book.

    As to all the characterizations of Moore as a crazy, bitter old man, if you've ever seen a video interview of him you'd know that they are patently false. He's always seemed a genial, intelligent, humorous old fellow to me.

    But then, so many people are so addicted to DC's characters that they'll gladly turn around and spit on anyone who badmouths the corporation, even the people responsible for actually creating the stories they love so much.
    Thank you so much for this simple and concise breakdown.The fanboys just don't get it and don't want to.Just had a discussion with an idiot we will call Sean in my LCS tonight and the repeating mantra was "he signed the contract" without regard that the contract was a scam from the get go.DC Fanboys can do what they want but other creators coming on board with this is appaling.The worst of the bunch is Len Wein whose Swamp Thing owes Moore big time.So much for honor among thieves.In addition to Before, I will no longer buy anything by Azzarello,Cooke,Wein or any other creative person associated with Before.

  3. #18
    Senior Member FIFTY-TWO (52)'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thad View Post
    At first.

    I think this is another of DC's schemes that's going to do big numbers for a short while and then everything will just go back to normal again. Just like the New 52.

    And I'm not saying that to comment one way or the other on the actual quality of either project, I'm just saying that DC's marketing strategies at present are very short-term ones.
    DC is gonna make their money on the trades, for sure.
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  4. #19
    Senior Member FIFTY-TWO (52)'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Captain Planet View Post
    They're going to sell out and I don't buy for a minute there is some LCS owner that won't stock them.
    Even the guy who said he won't stock them is still gonna have a stream of them coming into his store for the people that ordered them. He's still gonna make money off of them.
    "A man can be happy with any woman as long as he does not love her."

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  5. #20
    Life-Long Ring Slinger! samurai_rob's Avatar
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    I'm not getting them, myself. It's not because of the controversy, just my personal feelings. Watchmen changed the way the world views comics and I feel it doesn't need revised or expanded upon. I look at it like I do the Star Wars Special Editions...you don't need to mess with perfection. Watchmen is fine the way it is. That's the way it was meant to be and that's fine by me.

  6. #21
    Senior Member FIFTY-TWO (52)'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by megavikingman View Post
    That's actually a terrible argument, it's flawed for several reasons:

    1. All of the characters he used were in the public doman, their creators having passed away long ago and any claims to rights were forfeit. He was not stepping on anyone's toes or taking advantage of anyone else's misfortune.
    The Peter Pan characters from Lost Girls are not in the public domain. It's why Willingham couldn't use them in Fables.
    And Moore used them for scenes in his child porn bacchanal; not what they were intended for at all.

    2. None of those creators were encouraged to sign contracts that were specifically worded to take advantage of their trust. None of those creators were screwed out of the rights to their creations by technicalities.
    He didn't have lawyer read his contract?

    3. The world into which Moore placed those characters was entirely of his own invention. He built a world around them (loosely based off of historical Earth), he created the plot, he invented the challenges they faced. None of that is true of Before Watchmen: all of the characters will inhabit the exact same world and timeline Moore created, and the stories are based off of flashbacks and references to their past that Alan inserted in to the Watchmen book.
    But the characters weren't his. They were all based on Charlton characters DC owned. And sorry, I didn't recall the Red Scare, Nixon, and nuclear catastrophe as topics invented by Moore.

    As to all the characterizations of Moore as a crazy, bitter old man, if you've ever seen a video interview of him you'd know that they are patently false. He's always seemed a genial, intelligent, humorous old fellow to me.
    He's angry at people who didn't wrong him. He should be pissed at himself for not getting a lawyer to comb through his contract. He was dizzy with all the money he was making.
    And what about Gibbons? Does his opinion not count for shit?

    But then, so many people are so addicted to DC's characters that they'll gladly turn around and spit on anyone who badmouths the corporation, even the people responsible for actually creating the stories they love so much.
    Yeah, DC's characters. That means they can do what they want with them. DC hasn't done anything wrong, legally.
    The ethics are shady, yes, but that doesn't stop people from buying Superman and over half the Marvel universe month in, month out.
    Put your habit where your mouth is. Drop all products from DC and Marvel in protest.
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  7. #22
    Senior Member UnravThreads's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by samurai_rob View Post
    I'm not getting them, myself. It's not because of the controversy, just my personal feelings. Watchmen changed the way the world views comics and I feel it doesn't need revised or expanded upon. I look at it like I do the Star Wars Special Editions...you don't need to mess with perfection. Watchmen is fine the way it is. That's the way it was meant to be and that's fine by me.
    And Watchmen will continue to exist as a series. And it's not like DC are changing Watchmen itself. They're expanding on the main characters in a number of limited series. They're not doing on-goings, they're not doing a sequel, they're doing limited-issue runs based on the lives of the characters previous to Watchmen, and they're also doing a Minutemen comic.

    And that Minutemen comic is good enough for me.

  8. #23
    Veteran Member Leocomix's Avatar
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    Are some people language-challenged? Gibbons doesn't support the project, he gave the most lukewarm quote I have ever seen. Hardly an endorsermernt.

    Peter Pan was in the public domain when Moore started using it in 1989 then there was a law voted that put it back in the private domain for a few years. It is in the public domain now. Irrelevant anyway as it isn't about Peter Pan nor a Peter Pan sequel. Shows how ill-informed some people are.

    And I notice there are still people who believe the Watchmen characters were based on the Charlton heroes in spite of at least two comic book legends article devoted to the subject. DC has carefully forwarded that legend with the backmatter in their Watchmen editions, another demonstration of their duplicity.
    Last edited by Leocomix; 05-03-2012 at 02:55 AM.

  9. #24
    THE SUPERIOR MEMBER! USERNAME TAKEN's Avatar
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    I've never been interested in this and the controversy hasn't affected me one bit.

    Watchmen was a done in one and doesn't need any more exploration (IMO).

    I am DEFINITELY NOT getting this.
    Adults struggle desperately with fiction, demanding constantly that it conform to the rules of everyday life when the answer is obvious to the smallest child: because it's not real. - Grant Morrison

  10. #25
    Hey, Larry! Darrell D.'s Avatar
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    I wonder if it will do Avengers vs X-men numbers.

  11. #26

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    Quote Originally Posted by Darrell D. View Post
    I wonder if it will do Avengers vs X-men numbers.
    Be interesting to see. I'm also curious to see how DC's Second Wave stuff sells.
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  12. #27
    New Member William Hodge's Avatar
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    It seems that a lot of people are turned off. But they more than likely will sell very well.

  13. #28

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    Quote Originally Posted by William Hodge View Post
    It seems that a lot of people are turned off. But they more than likely will sell very well.
    A lot of people seem intellectually offended by the notion of re-visiting these characters, for any number of reasons. Personally, I don't have those sort of roadblocks with regard to this, so it's not an issue for me.
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  14. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by Leocomix View Post
    Peter Pan was in the public domain when Moore started using it in 1989 then there was a law voted that put it back in the private domain for a few years. It is in the public domain now. Irrelevant anyway as it isn't about Peter Pan nor a Peter Pan sequel. Shows how ill-informed some people are.
    No, it's just about a character from Peter Pan who's used in ways that, to the best of our knowledge, the author never intended her to be used. Or if you prefer, there's the whole deal about the Invisible Man and Mr. Hyde.

    I'm not against using someone else's characters in ways contrary to what their creators apparently intended, and I hold that view regardless of whether or not I'm interested in the story itself (sometimes I am, sometimes I'm not). What I am against is the "Moore can use public domain characters any way he wants" argument, because I still see an element of hypocrisy in it. Whether or not the ethics behind the contract are shady, the contract Moore signed means the rights to the Watchmen characters belong to DC, and DC is exercising its right to use those characters however they want to.

    I'm also against the "Watchmen was complete in itself, so no one else should write about it" argument. IMO it's hypocritical to follow that line of reasoning and yet condone the work Moore has done with public domain characters, since the creators of those characters intended for their stories to be complete unto themselves as well (unless, of course, the creators themselves wrote the sequels).

  15. #30

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    Quote Originally Posted by samurai_rob View Post
    I'm not getting them, myself. It's not because of the controversy, just my personal feelings. Watchmen changed the way the world views comics and I feel it doesn't need revised or expanded upon. I look at it like I do the Star Wars Special Editions...you don't need to mess with perfection. Watchmen is fine the way it is. That's the way it was meant to be and that's fine by me.
    This +1, for me at least. I won't knock the concept or the artists, but i don't think it will have same feel and impact as the the original Watchmen. I read that as a story with a message.. "it was deep, maaaaan". Adding more layers on top of it just kinda feels like a ploy to squeeze more juice out of the orange. But, it is a business and i do have freedom of choice (in ancient rome, there was a poem, about a dog...)

    What springs to mind for me is a comparison with Frank Herbert's Dune... the original book was mind-blowingly awesome.. it changed science fiction forever.. And now, the market is flooded with lots and lots of additional Dune novels on top of the original series. Why? Because there's a market for them.. people want to read the further adventures (or previous as the case may be) of the Atreides.. but they aren't expecting another earth shattering moment of pure sci-fi bliss.. just a fun engaging romp.

    same thing here. I don't expect Before Watchmen to have this great impact on comics like the original did, so I'm gonna skip it, i've got enough comics in my pull list... and in a sad sort of way, I've learned my lesson about buying into DC's hyped events.. 52 blah.

    (though conversely, i gobble up every Dune book i can lay my hands on.. but i'll pipe down before i start some kind of Moore vs Herbert discussion.. where ultimately Tolkien climbs into the ring and takes a chair to both of them)
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