Avengers Academy #29 *Spoilers*

[Wren]

Rogers hasn't done anything to Veil, no.

However, I don't think this was a case that the Academy kids needed more training because of abuse, as much as they were at risk of becoming villains, so they needed to be monitored while they are trained. There's a difference. In your case, the kids aren't prisoners and could have left the program and nobody would have cared. In my case, the kids can't leave and if they do they can't be trusted. Maybe it's a mixture of the two views. The Avengers set up the Academy because they recognized that there were kids out there that could become villains, and they wanted to short circuit that process by showing them the better way, and that's to be commended. The fact that the Avengers head hunted these kids, and not the Bastards of Evil kids tells me you're closer to the truth. The Avengers also know the Bastards are out there, but haven't raised a finger to bring them into school.

You have a valid point... but basically looking at how they allowed Veil to leave, and almost expelled some kids... they clearly don't have a problem with them leaving. As for the Bastards, I think the point of the AA is that they haven't done anything wrong, they've just been groomed for it. The Bastards have chosen evil and that's the point where training turns into rehabilitation: not what AA is about, imo.

Just dumb luck then that the kids didn't know harm from learning they were only there because they were at risk of becoming villains. I still wonder if Gage will confront the teachers that the kids know why they are here?

I kind of wonder the same. On the other hand, they seem to trust the faculty a lot now, so the impact of it would be diminished. It would have been great if they'd done it earlier.

So you're advocating assimilation of mutants into the community. That's a fair view. But Cyclops has the opposite view and wants the mutants to all stick together. I'm not adverse to mutants growing up with other super humans, it's just that if you followed Scott's law, mutants have to stick together for mutual protection. (My interpretation would also include mutual destruction, if they are all in one place)

And that's something (rather than assimilating them into AA) that I can see Cap considering... introducing these kids who've been sequestered by Cyke to the wider world. That's basically the Avengers stand on mutants: they're happy to have them as part of the team and support them against any mutant-haters, as part of the team. Their contribution to mutant rights is to make mutants look like normal superheroes. I wouldn't call it assimilation as assimilation has nasty connotations sometimes. Were Quicksilver and Scarlet Witch "assimilated"? I'd say they were more just accepted outside their own minority circles. Their mutancy wasn't belittled.

[Wren]

No, Wolverine left. Ba-dum-tish.

Shhh. They were all hand ninjas and skrulls. They don't count.

Anyway, ovens and gas chambers were used for one purpose and one purpose only: Killing. Sentinels have always been spun as "protection." The ones that wiped out Genosha were a specific model, only seen that one time, never seen before or since.

Mutants are totally justified in expecting a fight every time they see a Sentinel. But I don't think it's unreasonable to believe most non-mutants wouldn't quite understand just how offensive Sentinels are to mutants.

True about the protection aspect... but they're always protection *from mutants*. IE racially targeted protection, in a world where there's plenty of other things to be protected from. That in itself is enough to make them look bad to any critical MU citizen. And once this protection, developed specifically against mutants, goes nuts and kills 16 mill I think even the general public will sit up and take notice. They were rogue sentinels but however much one emphasizes that, the sheer numbers of it would be enough, imo.

[mikekerrIII]

Speaking of Prof X, where is he? Him and Legion aren't on the island at all? Did they go walk-about?
What about cable for that matter? Was he coma like still? Everyone just leave him there?
Aren't there others in jail on Utopia? Or no?
It's tough to keep track of only 200 people....how does the government do it....

I think Legion and Cable were taken off the table, it is hard to make this a serous event if they are included

[mikekerrIII]

To keep humans safe from evil mutants?

That seldom has been their intent or use. They are Ovens for mutants on legs.

[mikekerrIII]

No to that. What about the others besides Kid Gladiator? Do they want to rebel?

They are mutants and fellow mutants are under attack by the same group that is holding them at the AA and moved on the JGS.

And more than a few of them would thing rebellion is justified, two (KG ad QQ) would think the whole idea was fun. The latter two are both very powerful.

[Tiamatican]

Shhh. They were all hand ninjas and skrulls. They don't count.

True about the protection aspect... but they're always protection *from mutants*. IE racially targeted protection, in a world where there's plenty of other things to be protected from. That in itself is enough to make them look bad to any critical MU citizen. And once this protection, developed specifically against mutants, goes nuts and kills 16 mill I think even the general public will sit up and take notice. They were rogue sentinels but however much one emphasizes that, the sheer numbers of it would be enough, imo.

No, no! The Sentinels are trying to protect the innocent mutants, too! It's only the dangerous, violent mutants that the Sentinels are designed to stop. Surely you can't see anything nefarious about that, can you? The government has the best interests of everyone - human and mutant - in mind.

Please ignore all the instances of innocent mutants being rounded up in legal or quasi-legal raids.

I was being sarcastic, of course, but that almost certainly is the argument the government would use.

And you would think people would see the deaths of that many mutants as a reason for mutants to hate all Sentinels. But a lot of people saw Genosha as "a good start," a lot of others saw it a tragedy and then moved on with their lives. Even the Avengers would be shocked for a little while, and then go fight Ultron again and forget all about it. I doubt many of them lost friends there, so they don't even have the personal connection to what happened.

Hence, they don't think about what Sentinels mean to mutants until someone points it out. At that point, it makes complete sense to them. But they need that "oh right" moment.

Though it would be nice to see non-mutant characters occasionally question the Sentinel programs. Captain America's top cop right now, maybe we could see a panel of him refusing to authorize the use of Sentinels. Actually, that would make for a cool moment in AvX. Maybe someone suggests using some Sentinels to capture the X-Men, and Cap just tells him off. "Sentinels killed 16 million mutants on Genosha. We will not use them against the X-Men. Not as long as I'm around."

[AcesX1X]

how sad. if this were captain america being forced to surrender to a sentinel under false pretenses, this board would have 100+ pages strong. but since it's a bunch of nobody mutants, it's ok to make light of extermination-level threats.

perhaps if we all put burning crosses and hanging nooses in falcon's neighborhood, people would get a clue.

[The_Ronin]

That seldom has been their intent or use. They are Ovens for mutants on legs.

And yet... No evil mutants around here *looks left and right* Guess they work.

[The_Ronin]

I think it's hard to separate what we know, as the audience, from what the characters would know and see. To us, it's obvious that Sentinels are to mutants what burning crosses are to black people. Because we know that Sentinels have been used for some pretty awful purposes in the past. Plus, they're usually sent up against the X-Men, who are good guys.

But in-universe? Even the other heroes sometimes look at the X-Men with suspicion. I don't just mean now, with Utopia, but in the past, as well. And that suspicion is mutual - the X-Men have never been sure which side the Avengers would fall on if the government ever came after mutants in force. I'm not sure most of the Avengers are sure, either.

And the news almost certainly doesn't say, "Sentinels attacked the X-Men today." More likely, it would be presented as, "A clash between a group of mutant vigilantes and Sentinels today. Authorities allege that the mutants were causing a public disturbance, and when attempts were made to apprehend them, they became violent." Trish Tilby might report that the X-Men stopped a bank robber and that the Sentinels began the attack, but maybe she's biased. All the other reporters are supporting the government's statements, after all. And I don't remember if it was public knowledge that she dated Beast.

We know the facts. So we just assume that the characters in the comics know them, too.

I know, sigh, some of these people are having trouble seperating out of universe information and things from in-universe.

Like the comments about "Why didn't the Avengers do... X when Y happened to the mutants"

Because they aren't x-men books! suspension of disbelief guys! but save you I am going to be talking to my self when I say that.

[Tiamatican]

how sad. if this were captain america being forced to surrender to a sentinel under false pretenses, this board would have 100+ pages strong. but since it's a bunch of nobody mutants, it's ok to make light of extermination-level threats.

perhaps if we all put burning crosses and hanging nooses in falcon's neighborhood, people would get a clue.

Well, it's OK to make light of it because it's comic books. It's not real.

But anyway, I'm just saying the non-mutants aren't morons for not realizing what Sentinels represent to mutants. My view is that the Avengers probably made the right call bringing the X-kids to the Academy, that the kids are nonetheless effectively prisoners of war, and that they'll be justified in attempting an escape. And that Sentinels are like burning crosses to mutants, but it's not unreasonable for non-mutants to not realize that.

I'm defending everyone. People might say I'm magnanimous, but I'm just big-boned.

[AcesX1X]

I know, sigh, some of these people are having trouble seperating out of universe information and things from in-universe.

Like the comments about "Why didn't the Avengers do... X when Y happened to the mutants"

Because they aren't x-men books! suspension of disbelief guys! but save you I am going to be talking to my self when I say that.

too bad that quicksilver and scarlet witch were highly involved in the post-genosha attacks. so much for your suspension of disbelief. guess they were the only ones on payroll with vacation time...

[mikekerrIII]

And yet... No evil mutants around here *looks left and right* Guess they work.

I guess you now qualify for a position on the Avengers "brain trust", perhaps over qualify

[The_Ronin]

I guess you now qualify for a position on the Avengers "brain trust", perhaps over qualify

Yes yes, Insert outrage here.

[Tiamatican]

And yet... No evil mutants around here *looks left and right* Guess they work.

Ronin, I want to buy your rock!

I know, sigh, some of these people are having trouble seperating out of universe information and things from in-universe.

Like the comments about "Why didn't the Avengers do... X when Y happened to the mutants"

Because they aren't x-men books! suspension of disbelief guys! but save you I am going to be talking to my self when I say that.

Um . . . I'm one of the people who criticizes the Avengers for not doing more to promote mutant rights. And for failing to look for survivors on Genosha. That actually really bothers me.

[mikekerrIII]

Because they aren't x-men books! suspension of disbelief guys! but save you I am going to be talking to my self when I say that.

On most thing you are complety right about the teams not helping each othe the are only a few exceptions like Stark and Carol who were on the pages ignoring things. or building sentinels for bigots.moast of the complaints about that are silly becasue they come from the editorial structure of the books.

Bu I don't think that covers what would be common knowledge in what is essentially a small super-hero community like what Mutants think of Sentinels. These folks often work and live together So over the years the news and knowledge would spread. All of the community would know what Sentinels mean if only though normal human gossip