Avengers Academy #29 *Spoilers*

[The_Ronin]

"extermination event underway"

Attachment 92877

I feel safe!

[Tiamatican]

unless she's a complete dimwit, she knows what sentinels mean to mutants. it's pretty blatantly obvious to anyone who has ever heard of them what their purpose is.

Their purpose is to fight evil mutants who threaten innocents. Any time the government has made use of them, that's what they've been explained as. And the fact is, there just aren't enough people in the media defending mutants for most people to hear the negative side of the Sentinels. They may know mutants have had problems with Sentinels, but hey, so have humans. You don't stop driving just because you get in an accident. You don't blame the gun for shooting you, you blame the guy holding it.

It's not stupidity not to recognize what Sentinels represent to mutants. It's simply coming from a very different background than mutants come from. Humans haven't actually seen the things that have been done to mutants over the years. Most of it's been either in secret or spun by the government and the media as being something different.

[The_Ronin]

Their purpose is to fight evil mutants who threaten innocents. Any time the government has made use of them, that's what they've been explained as. And the fact is, there just aren't enough people in the media defending mutants for most people to hear the negative side of the Sentinels. They may know mutants have had problems with Sentinels, but hey, so have humans. You don't stop driving just because you get in an accident. You don't blame the gun for shooting you, you blame the guy holding it.

It's not stupidity not to recognize what Sentinels represent to mutants. It's simply coming from a very different background than mutants come from. Humans haven't actually seen the things that have been done to mutants over the years. Most of it's been either in secret or spun by the government and the media as being something different.

Thats kind of what I was trying to get at with my smart-assed comment. Why do people keep forgetting the "Feared and hated" part of this mutant thing?

[jackolover]

You don't read much Kid Gladiator, do you?

No to that. What about the others besides Kid Gladiator? Do they want to rebel?

[jackolover]

No, they're there to (potentially) become Avengers... but the reason they were chosen is because they seemed like they needed the training because of the abuse they suffered. They're not just there to be monitored, they are actively training to join the Avengers, as far as I know.

Rogers hasn't done anything to Veil for leaving, has he? Despite them being sure that the Alchemist is a villain?

Rogers hasn't done anything to Veil, no.

However, I don't think this was a case that the Academy kids needed more training because of abuse, as much as they were at risk of becoming villains, so they needed to be monitored while they are trained. There's a difference. In your case, the kids aren't prisoners and could have left the program and nobody would have cared. In my case, the kids can't leave and if they do they can't be trusted. Maybe it's a mixture of the two views. The Avengers set up the Academy because they recognized that there were kids out there that could become villains, and they wanted to short circuit that process by showing them the better way, and that's to be commended. The fact that the Avengers head hunted these kids, and not the Bastards of Evil kids tells me you're closer to the truth. The Avengers also know the Bastards are out there, but haven't raised a finger to bring them into school.

True, but the reason it's done them so little damage is that the faculty were able to bond with the kids enough to show them that they're good people with their best interest at heart. Runaways, Fear Itself, the Hood, Magneto and so on has shown them that the teachers are good people because when push comes to shove they try to do the right thing and they want to protect the students. But it could easily have been that an AvX situation was the first thing that happened to them, and the trust would never have been built.
Thus the safer bet is never needing to have that trust be destroyed in the first place.

Just dumb luck then that the kids didn't know harm from learning they were only there because they were at risk of becoming villains. I still wonder if Gage will confront the teachers that the kids know why they are here?

There are mutant students at the school (Penance), and mutant teachers (quicksilver, though he's absent atm). Besides isn't it kind of racist to say that other superhumans can't possibly compare to their own race? What's wrong with Tigra and Hercules that they can't take care of the kids? It's just segregation...

The kids could probably benefit from interacting with other superhumans.

So you're advocating assimilation of mutants into the community. That's a fair view. But Cyclops has the opposite view and wants the mutants to all stick together. I'm not adverse to mutants growing up with other super humans, it's just that if you followed Scott's law, mutants have to stick together for mutual protection. (My interpretation would also include mutual destruction, if they are all in one place)

I think it is a bit worse than that really. Cap has made the Academy students warders or turnkey officers. Say what Tigra wants to have happen actually happens and some of the X-kids form friendships with some of the Academy students. Then something happens and the X-kids try to leave. If they go and the Academy students do nothing then they are not following orders and they will wonder if that was the right thing to do-especially if one of the X-kids gets hurt. If they try to stop them or alert Tigra or one of the others then in the eyes of the X-kids they are betraying a friendship. The difference between the two groups will be emphasized and divisions will grow. It's a lesson every prisoner has to learn. You can't really be friends with your jailor. At the end of the day he can walk out; you can't. You can argue that the place isn't a jail or prison but from the point of view of the X-kids what is the difference between a jail and where they are now? Their crime basically is being considered too young to know what is good for them and what teen ager has ever believed that?

Mark_S

I'm not too sure the X-Kids are too sympathetic to the X-Mens plight in AvX. They seem to be a bit blase' looking through that window, so I don't think the X-Kids are terribly interested in joining in the battles, so I don't think they will escape for that reason. They may want to escape just for the hell of it, but I don't think that will put them at risk, to the point that Cap had to say, "Stop them". Hell, when you look at the Avengers Initiative, those kids were escaping all the time, to have a party outside, so I can expect both teams will want to try the same thing.

As to your comment that the turnkey is different to the inmate, there is a connotation that the Academy kids are now seen as establishment, and I don't think anybody can make that assumption. These kids know their own mind and will act accordingly, and they won't be brow beaten by Captain America. If the Academy kids disagree with Cap, then they will let the mutants out. The Academy kids disobeyed their handlers and attacked Norman Osborn in the Raft. What is the West Coast compound going to compare to that?

[AcesX1X]

Their purpose is to fight evil mutants who threaten innocents. Any time the government has made use of them, that's what they've been explained as. And the fact is, there just aren't enough people in the media defending mutants for most people to hear the negative side of the Sentinels. They may know mutants have had problems with Sentinels, but hey, so have humans. You don't stop driving just because you get in an accident. You don't blame the gun for shooting you, you blame the guy holding it.

sixteen million innocent mutants were nuked in e for extinction by sentinels and it was all over the news. the avengers knew all about it, the entire public knew about it. whatever their purpose was before that day is completely irrelevant. they were used as holocaust machines on that day, and i repeat: unless tigra is a complete idiot, she knows what those machines represent.

[Tiamatican]

Thats kind of what I was trying to get at with my smart-assed comment. Why do people keep forgetting the "Feared and hated" part of this mutant thing?

I think it's hard to separate what we know, as the audience, from what the characters would know and see. To us, it's obvious that Sentinels are to mutants what burning crosses are to black people. Because we know that Sentinels have been used for some pretty awful purposes in the past. Plus, they're usually sent up against the X-Men, who are good guys.

But in-universe? Even the other heroes sometimes look at the X-Men with suspicion. I don't just mean now, with Utopia, but in the past, as well. And that suspicion is mutual - the X-Men have never been sure which side the Avengers would fall on if the government ever came after mutants in force. I'm not sure most of the Avengers are sure, either.

And the news almost certainly doesn't say, "Sentinels attacked the X-Men today." More likely, it would be presented as, "A clash between a group of mutant vigilantes and Sentinels today. Authorities allege that the mutants were causing a public disturbance, and when attempts were made to apprehend them, they became violent." Trish Tilby might report that the X-Men stopped a bank robber and that the Sentinels began the attack, but maybe she's biased. All the other reporters are supporting the government's statements, after all. And I don't remember if it was public knowledge that she dated Beast.

We know the facts. So we just assume that the characters in the comics know them, too.

[Tiamatican]

sixteen million innocent mutants were nuked in e for extinction by sentinels and it was all over the news. the avengers knew all about it, the entire public knew about it. whatever their purpose was before that day is completely irrelevant. they were used as holocaust machines on that day, and i repeat: unless tigra is a complete idiot, she knows what those machines represent.

Do we blame all Germans for the Holocaust? Do we blame the tanks and bombs and guns used in wars? Or do we blame the people responsible? "Guns don't kill people, people kill people." Common view. And the people who hold it think the people who blame loose gun laws are idiots.

On a side note, it bothers me that not a single Avenger showed up in the wake of Genosha to help look for survivors. 16 million dead, and the Avengers couldn't be bothered to see if any of them survived.

[AcesX1X]

Do we blame all Germans for the Holocaust? Do we blame the tanks and bombs and guns used in wars? Or do we blame the people responsible? "Guns don't kill people, people kill people." Common view. And the people who hold it think the people who blame loose gun laws are idiots.

On a side note, it bothers me that not a single Avenger showed up in the wake of Genosha to help look for survivors. 16 million dead, and the Avengers couldn't be bothered to see if any of them survived.

a fat, middle-aged american dentist and a psychic abortion were responsible for sending the machines, but the machines themselves hold their own shocking imagery.

[Khajit]

Do we blame all Germans for the Holocaust? Do we blame the tanks and bombs and guns used in wars? Or do we blame the people responsible? "Guns don't kill people, people kill people." Common view. And the people who hold it think the people who blame loose gun laws are idiots.

On a side note, it bothers me that not a single Avenger showed up in the wake of Genosha to help look for survivors. 16 million dead, and the Avengers couldn't be bothered to see if any of them survived.

Ms Marvel had to be outright told what happened during decimation and about the bus crash. I get the feeling most of the Avengers spend too much time on various missions to actually keep up with current events.

[AcesX1X]

to their credit, quicksilver and wanda did show up at various points to help out in genosha. quicksilver, to help rescue polaris; wanda, to bury the body of xorn (magneto). the avengers knew about it, they were just too busy to be bothered....poor beast and jean had to sift through skeletal remains all by themselves.

[jackolover]

The Avengers train one set of kids, the X-men train another set of kids... I feel sorry for these kids really. All that they seem to have to look forward to in life is endless superhero battles. Happiness is going to a rare thing for them.

Mark_S

Yeah, I think that's the game. If you have powers you will be placed in a team and you will fight for your right to exist.

[Tiamatican]

a fat, middle-aged american dentist and a psychic abortion were responsible for sending the machines, but the machines themselves hold their own shocking imagery.

I doubt it's common knowledge who was actually behind the attack on Genosha. As far as the general public knew, it was probably just some crazy person. The point is, the public would think blaming the Sentinels is equivalent to blaming a gun for a murder. They wouldn't be likely to think of how mutants feel about Sentinels, any more than a lot of people think about how someone who lost family to gun violence feels about guns in general. When it's pointed out, they'd probably say, "OK, yeah, that makes sense." But most people wouldn't really realize that connection on their own.

Ms Marvel had to be outright told what happened during decimation and about the bus crash. I get the feeling most of the Avengers spend too much time on various missions to actually keep up with current events.

Probably. Even so, the Genoshan genocide would've been front-page news, I would think, and the Avengers had to have been aware of it as soon as it happened. So it just feels wrong, to me, that none of them went out to search for survivors.

[Wren]

Do we blame all Germans for the Holocaust? Do we blame the tanks and bombs and guns used in wars? Or do we blame the people responsible? "Guns don't kill people, people kill people." Common view. And the people who hold it think the people who blame loose gun laws are idiots.

Much as I agree with most of your points, this isn't fair. Look at ovens for Jews. No one blames the ovens, but it's just "unique" enough a murder tool that it's engraved in public consciousness. The mention of it is forever going to be in bad taste, however innocent it is.

Sentinels don't ALWAYS mean bad, and the X-kids freaking out is about as bad as the Avengers freaking out whenever they see Magneto-- ie you can't blame them, but they're being rash.
And for same reason that the x-kids have little right to be offended by the sentinel: they have, on their team, an unrepentant terrorist who's killed thousands of humans.

[Tiamatican]

Much as I agree with most of your points, this isn't fair. Look at ovens for Jews. No one blames the ovens, but it's just "unique" enough a murder tool that it's engraved in public consciousness. The mention of it is forever going to be in bad taste, however innocent it is.

Sentinels don't ALWAYS mean bad, and the X-kids freaking out is about as bad as the Avengers freaking out whenever they see Magneto-- ie you can't blame them, but they're being rash.
And for same reason that the x-kids have little right to be offended by the sentinel: they have, on their team, an unrepentant terrorist who's killed thousands of humans.

No, Wolverine left. Ba-dum-tish.

Anyway, ovens and gas chambers were used for one purpose and one purpose only: Killing. Sentinels have always been spun as "protection." The ones that wiped out Genosha were a specific model, only seen that one time, never seen before or since.

Mutants are totally justified in expecting a fight every time they see a Sentinel. But I don't think it's unreasonable to believe most non-mutants wouldn't quite understand just how offensive Sentinels are to mutants.


On an unrelated note, I just browsed through a bit of the X-board thread on this issue. It reminded me why I don't read the X-boards any more. Oy.