Avengers Academy #29 *Spoilers*

[Old Sparky]

The basic's are very simple:

1. The Utopia kids are being held under the threat of Force and being that threat is the assigned duty of the AA kids.

2. Since they consider them soldier, at least some of them, they are POWs taken in battle. Some or all of the New Mutants there are of legal age to be soldiers, some of the lights look to be also.

3. They are being held there to keep them from protecting their own people and some of them are a bit pissed off about it.

4. The presence of combatants at the School puts the AA kids at risk. The Utopia kids play rough and at least one is a very experienced killer.

5. The loyalty of the AA kids is questionable since they learned that the whole reason they were told they were there is a lie and that still hasn't boiled over.

Which of those statements is not factual?

#2 is a stretching of the truth. You --and some other people on this forum-- are assigning the soldier and POW tags to the kids. Giant-Man and Captain America both seem in agreement that the kids have done nothing wrong and shouldn't be punished... only removed from the combat. SOME of the X-kids are of legal age to be treated as soldiers... in their own countries. However, they're in America and Captain America is treating them the same as everyone else under 18. They don't get to be involved. Boohoo for them.

However, as I said, the original post was the one filled with inaccuracies and lies. You recapping in an abbreviated manner that omits the bulk of those incorrect statements does not change what was said.

Yes, the X-kids are being detained. Yes, they feel its unfair. No, they aren't being tortured (there is no telepathic dampener just because mind control and teleportation is prevented from working). No, AA isn't a prison. The X-kids aren't allowed to leave, but its over-exaggerating their situation because of how they feel doesn't change the facts. Protective custody is protective custody. Dr. Rao and Madison Jeffries seem to be there of their own free will as chaperones of the X-kids. With the rest of the X-Men running around as essentially fugitives (because they're running from and opposing Captain America who has the authority of SHIELD behind him, and he's acting in the interests of national security and world safety even if his actions have been initiated based on a lot of half-truths and total falsehoods perpetuated by Wolverine), Rao and Jeffries are all that's left as legal guardians unless some parents step forth to claim their children. And neither of them seem at all bothered by the situation beyond Jeffries stating that he would prefer to be notified before anyone gets tased in an escape attempt or attack by the X-kids. He didn't say "don't do it," just that he'd like to know before it goes down.

[infernohara]

I didn't know the current JGS kids were ready to rebel?

You don't read much Kid Gladiator, do you?

[mikekerrIII]

#2 is a stretching of the truth. You --and some other people on this forum-- are assigning the soldier and POW tags to the kids. Giant-Man and Captain America both seem in agreement that the kids have done nothing wrong and shouldn't be punished... only removed from the combat. SOME of the X-kids are of legal age to be treated as soldiers... in their own countries. However, they're in America and Captain America is treating them the same as everyone else under 18. They don't get to be involved. Boohoo for them.

They are soldier in their own country (utopia) and that is where the were taken prisoner, that makes the AA a POW camp to them. they have every right to treat it as such and act accordingly.

Yes, the X-kids are being detained. Yes, they feel its unfair.

They believe they were taken in an act of War by an invading army, which is exactly what happened

No, they aren't being tortured (there is no telepathic dampener just because mind control and teleportation is prevented from working). No, AA isn't a prison. The X-kids aren't allowed to leave, but its over-exaggerating their situation because of how they feel doesn't change the facts. Protective custody is protective custody.

And internment camp for a prisoner taken in war is still prison.

Dr. Rao and Madison Jeffries seem to be there of their own free will as chaperones of the X-kids. With the rest of the X-Men running around as essentially fugitives (because they're running from and opposing Captain America who has the authority of SHIELD behind him, and he's acting in the interests of national security and world safety even if his actions have been initiated based on a lot of half-truths and total falsehoods perpetuated by Wolverine), Rao and Jeffries are all that's left as legal guardians unless some parents step forth to claim their children. And neither of them seem at all bothered by the situation beyond Jeffries stating that he would prefer to be notified before anyone gets tased in an escape attempt or attack by the X-kids. He didn't say "don't do it," just that he'd like to know before it goes down.

Rao and Madison have no call to either the obedience or loyalty to those kids, they work for the X-men but are not someone that the kids would have any reason to obey, especially any mutant who knew what they where and had done. the genocidal doctor and the crazy guy are not exactly figures of respect or trust.

Cap told the AA kids to stop the Utopia kids from leaving, its not like Tigra or Herc could do much about it if they tried. He said that they should contact the instructors but authorized them to use force thus making them combatants. A VERY dumb move at best. cap only succeeded in moving the fight and possibly adding recruits to the other side.

You might be the only person left that thinks that Utopia is not a nation, did you not read the conversions about the UN, the problem of charging the X-men and international law? None of those would apply if Utopia was somehow under the jurisdiction of the US since under US law there would have been many things they could be charged with. Cap has no more legal authority there than any other invading army does. the authority of SHIELD in Utopia is sole the authority of brute force, nothing else

[Lady_Alternate]

You don't read much Kid Gladiator, do you?

He's not so much rebelling as being Kid Gladiator. But, when your powers only work because of your self confidence, what are you going to do?

[Ian Pressman]

They are soldier in their own country (utopia) and that is where the were taken prisoner, that makes the AA a POW camp to them. they have every right to treat it as such and act accordingly.
They believe they were taken in an act of War by an invading army, which is exactly what happened
And internment camp for a prisoner taken in war is still prison.

Who cares what they believe? They're children. Even if Utopia were its own country (it's not) there's no international law saying child combatants have the same legal rights as adults. In fact if they were Soldiers, Utopia would be guilty of violating international law. (Right here.

Rao and Madison have no call to either the obedience or loyalty to those kids, they work for the X-men but are not someone that the kids would have any reason to obey, especially any mutant who knew what they where and had done. the genocidal doctor and the crazy guy are not exactly figures of respect or trust.

Again, who care? They're kids. If those two adults were in positions of authority and responsibility on their little Island compound, then they're the ones the other adults deal with.

You might be the only person left that thinks that Utopia is not a nation, did you not read the conversions about the UN, the problem of charging the X-men and international law? None of those would apply if Utopia was somehow under the jurisdiction of the US since under US law there would have been many things they could be charged with. Cap has no more legal authority there than any other invading army does. the authority of SHIELD in Utopia is sole the authority of brute force, nothing else

Not that I want to drudge that up again, but there are quite a few of us who don't believe that Utopia is a country who displayed a lot of in-universe evidence and examples that demonstrated why no one would have to consider it as such. The marvel editorial stance on Utopia's sovereignty is clearly undecided. Cap's exact quote: "--And I don't care what Summers told the U.N., they can't just decide they're above international law." This is clearly a reference to the letter that Cyclops had published in UXM #11, nothing more. Iron Man's question of what to charge them with can easily pertain to Cap not introducing himself in his capacity as the head of Shield in Issue 1 before demanding Hope, again, this has nothing to do with the issue of 'nationhood'. Cap is America's top cop, so he'd know if he was wrong.

[AcesX1X]

Cap doesn't consider Utopia a separate country, and he's America's top cop, so he'd know if he was wrong.

lol, who cares what cap considers? he has no authority over the mutant race. i'm sure king george didn't consider america its own nation either.

[Ian Pressman]

lol, who cares what cap considers? he has no authority over the mutant race. i'm sure king george didn't consider america its own nation either.

Ohhhh, now you're stretching.

[alf_to_the_rescue]

You make some observations that are just plain false, and some designed to be misleading... not to mention your commentary overall is intended to be a negative judgement against the book and everyone in it when its obvious you don't know what's going on or even who's who in the title. I wish I could say your statements about Hercules were untrue, but you are portraying them in a way that suggests he is a pedophile when for him its just about not recognizing the importance of clothing. And when he's looking for an opponent to demonstrate the ancient art of wrestling with, he's asking for one of the boys because he's trying to represent the historical significance... because way back when in ancient Greece, that's how it was done... in the nude and between two male warriors. However, he was more than willing to accept Tigra as his opponent because he definitely has a preference for wrestling with women (just ask Namora). Still, he gives off a very creepy vibe to everyone else present.

Is Hercules not bisexual anyway?

[Pixie_Solanas]

America's top cop? I can smell the fried bacon from here.

[Wren]

No, there was no actual mention of monitoring of the students.

Mind you, why are the kids there in the first place? They are there to monitor them and make sure they don't become villains. Even if they leave, the Avengers are not going to say, "To hell with them, and let them become villains" are they? What do you think Rogers would do if they left?

No, they're there to (potentially) become Avengers... but the reason they were chosen is because they seemed like they needed the training because of the abuse they suffered. They're not just there to be monitored, they are actively training to join the Avengers, as far as I know.

Rogers hasn't done anything to Veil for leaving, has he? Despite them being sure that the Alchemist is a villain?

Problem is, they found out in issue # 1 anyway, so whatever injury it was going to cause the kids, it's been multiplying ever since, right? Unless I'm wrong, the knowledge hasn't done them any harm.

True, but the reason it's done them so little damage is that the faculty were able to bond with the kids enough to show them that they're good people with their best interest at heart. Runaways, Fear Itself, the Hood, Magneto and so on has shown them that the teachers are good people because when push comes to shove they try to do the right thing and they want to protect the students. But it could easily have been that an AvX situation was the first thing that happened to them, and the trust would never have been built.
Thus the safer bet is never needing to have that trust be destroyed in the first place.

They'd be in better company because they would be with other mutants.

There are mutant students at the school (Penance), and mutant teachers (quicksilver, though he's absent atm). Besides isn't it kind of racist to say that other superhumans can't possibly compare to their own race? What's wrong with Tigra and Hercules that they can't take care of the kids? It's just segregation...

The kids could probably benefit from interacting with other superhumans.

[Ian Pressman]

America's top cop? I can smell the fried bacon from here.

Hey, there's precedent for this kind of thing that protects Steve. Remember Secret War? That Mini-series where Nick Fury was brought down as head of shield because he violated International Law by staging an invasion of Latveria? Nick was the top cop. Nick told everyone that Latveria was going to do something catastrophic. Nick said we had to go to Latveria RIGHT NOW. Everyone said: "Nick, you can't do that. Latveria is a sovereign nation, if you go there without solid proof, you're breaking the law. Don't do it." Nick did it anyway, Nick got burned bad and had to go into hiding as a wanted criminal.

Fast-forward to AvX. No one told Cap he couldn't do anything. No one is accusing Cap of violating the law by being on Utopia. Cap has hearsay in place of evidence, and although we the readers all know the PF is a planet killer, Cap has no proof that such a thing could occur. He's still on Utopia with no legal repercussions. Why would that be, if Utopia was an actual country?

[quillero]

LOL.

The books is awful. And Cap and Tigra did instruct the kids on how to keep the mutants prisoners. DEAL WITH IT.

[mikekerrIII]

Who cares what they believe? They're children. Even if Utopia were its own country (it's not) there's no international law saying child combatants have the same legal rights as adults. In fact if they were Soldiers, Utopia would be guilty of violating international law. (Right here.

I guess you might want to research that a little further since the UK, Ireland and the US allow soldiers under the age of 18, In the US the only limit is that people under 18 can''t be deployed overseas to a combat zone. there is also no bottom limit on the right to defend self and country from direct attack. I know about the US law on the subject since I was in the Air force well before my 18th Birthday. And not caring that they see themselves as combatants is really dumb since they have no obligation to pay any attention to what their captor's believe.

Most international laws like the convention you quoted only apply to signatories, not to every nation on earth, that is why the US has never signed many conventions like the first two Hague convention and things like the land mine conventions. The only one that apply everywhere are the ones that cover crimes against humanities, Even your link says that it only applies to ratifying countries

And pretending that soldiers are not soldiers becasue you simply do not consider them so is foolhardy at best< since they will act on what they believe not on what you believe

Again, who care? They're kids. If those two adults were in positions of authority and responsibility on their little Island compound, then they're the ones the other adults deal with.

They were never in positions of authority or responsibility over those kids, they were scientists who had their own little group. Because of who they are that is fairly silly an idea. Nobody with any legitimate authority put them in charge

Not that I want to drudge that up again, but there are quite a few of us who don't believe that Utopia is a country who displayed a lot of in-universe evidence and examples that demonstrated why no one would have to consider it as such. The marvel editorial stance on Utopia's sovereignty is clearly undecided. Cap's exact quote: "--And I don't care what Summers told the U.N., they can't just decide they're above international law." This is clearly a reference to the letter that Cyclops had published in UXM #11, nothing more. Iron Man's question of what to charge them with can easily pertain to Cap not introducing himself in his capacity as the head of Shield in Issue 1 before demanding Hope, again, this has nothing to do with the issue of 'nationhood'. Cap is America's top cop, so he'd know if he was wrong.

If they are not a nation why is Cap struggling to find an excuse in international law to hold them with? If they were part of the US that would be unnecessary.

[mikekerrIII]

Ohhhh, now you're stretching.

Not much since at worse Utopia is in exactly same legal status as the US was from 1776 to 1781. Nobody had recognized us either. But we still were a nation

[bladeofdarkness]

Fast-forward to AvX. No one told Cap he couldn't do anything. No one is accusing Cap of violating the law by being on Utopia. Cap has hearsay in place of evidence, and although we the readers all know the PF is a planet killer, Cap has no proof that such a thing could occur. He's still on Utopia with no legal repercussions. Why would that be, if Utopia was an actual country?

except that, unlike Secret War, the victims of his aggression in this case are MUTANTS.
and nobody cares what happens to mutants in the Marvel-verse.