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  1. #331
    Elder Member mikekerrIII's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kurolegacy View Post
    To say that the Avengers attacked their home is a complete overstatement. Cap came to Utopia and told Scott he had to take Hope and explained why. It was Scott who attacked when Cap didn't take no for an answer. And don't say that he brought a helicarrier full of Avengers because that's still not an attack, as they still weren't the ones who fired the first shot. Had Scott not attacked, the Avengers wouldn't have fought back.
    Who came to utopia to take someone by force if necessary, Who refused to back off? Who invaded the kids home to take one of them? the answer to all those qquestions is the Avengers> the Avengers brought the fight to the island

    Quote Originally Posted by JaggedFel View Post
    IMO, that is just speculation you have no proof. The only one who got tossed in a jail cell was Shaw which makes sense considering his criminal record.
    If you can't leave under threat of force it is a jail no matter how prety it is
    Quote Originally Posted by JaggedFel View Post
    Its not a POW Camp. Unless you imprison POW with large numbers of your own people.
    It is a POW Camp since Prisoners who consider themselves soldiers are being held there by force.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tiamatican View Post

    The Avengers are trying to stop these kids from going to war. As far as the kids are concerned, being a mutant means they're at war automatically. Every day is a struggle for survival. The Avengers don't want the kids serving as soldiers? The kids have no choice but to be soldiers, because the alternative is getting wiped out by humans.
    I think that the Avengers fans are looking at the Utopia kids like they are the AA kids or even the young Avengers, that is somewhat true for the lights bu a big mistake for people like Pixie, Surge, Dust and the Cuckoos. the latter are not students in being super-heroes the are experienced super-heroes by any standards. they are fighting for what they see as the survival of their race against just another group of villains.
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  2. #332
    Bieber My Balls Tiamatican's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Old Sparky View Post
    And the Avengers have had many mutant members over the years. They are not against mutants... they're fighting the X-Men right now because Cyclops is being obtuse and narrow-minded. He's so focused on the good of the mutant population that he's willing to risk the fate of the entire planet. And when it comes to Hope, does he explain to her about the Phoenix Force or his concerns while training her? No, he tells her to fight him without using powers while he stands there and using his to beat her down, shouting at her to try again until she manifests a bit of the PF. How about some education? Nah... he's obsessed and is following an agenda. At this point, he's almost as bad as Magneto used to be (he just hasn't actively gone out of his way to kill humans to protect mutants... yet).
    They're not against mutants on an individual basis. What have they ever done for mutants as a whole?

    Quote Originally Posted by Old Sparky View Post
    I'm convinced that you either are still a child (thus identifying with what you see as the unfairness of their situation) or had some really restricting situations while you were a child and haven't yet come to grips with it as an adult. The AA kids were told to stop the X-kids if they attempted to leave or if they attack. Stopping someone from leaving a place does not make it a prison. Remember, they are minors... their rights are different from the rights of adults. They can be told to stay at a place and that isn't jailing them. Calling it that merely calls into question one's ability to make grown up decisions. But, on the other hand, we are indeed talking about superhuman kids... having powers that make them dangerous. You can't just expect that telling them to stop or standing in front of them is going to deter them if they set their mind on leaving... OR ATTACKING. So yeah, if they do either of those things, the AA are supposed to stop them. Stopping them may require them to use minimal force, but it doesn't even have to require force. It could be as simple as saying, "Please don't do this" or finding another nonviolent alternative. The minimal force thing was brought up because one of the AA kids asked if they could be tased (since he has the electric powers to do it).
    You're wrong about me. I'm 27 and my mom wasn't at all restrictive. I'm simply looking at this from both sides. They may be minors, but they're still being forcibly detained in a secure facility and being threatened with violence if they attempt to leave. And it's because the Avengers don't want to have to fight them when they're dealing with other stuff. There are any number of adults who could have stayed with them on Utopia, but the point isn't supervision, the point is detainment for the duration of the war. This makes them prisoners of war, and the Academy itself a prison.

    Quote Originally Posted by Old Sparky View Post
    If the government does it to me, maybe it is... because I'm an adult. If they're going to violate my adult rights of personal liberty without good cause, then its wrongful imprisonment too. However, and again, these are minors... they do not have the same rights as adults. They can't go anywhere and do anything they want, especially when it comes to getting involved in violent altercations which could be viewed as war... even if they do have the power to handle themselves in a fight against established Avengers. Having the power to take care of one's self does not automatically grant the right to make those decisions for one's self. Legally speaking, they would have to be emancipated before being allowed to decide what's best for themselves... and short of their parents coming to take them out of protective custody, then the established authority does indeed have every right to tell them to sit tight until the situation is sorted out. THIS IS NOT PRISON, its life in the real world.
    They don't have the same rights as adults, true. But I repeat what I said above.

    Quote Originally Posted by Old Sparky View Post
    POWs? Really? Try selling that one to war vets who were real POWs in Vietnam. Or try comparing their situation to Gitmo. Because, you know, them being off U.S. soil and thus not entitled to any of the protections of the Geneva Convention... yeah, that's totally the same thing. As for being justified in trying to escape... let me guess, when you were/if you still are a teen and your parents set a curfew, you saw it as prison-like and felt justified in trying to stay out later just to defy the unfair restriction on your personal freedom. Am I right? Being restricted does not justify them trying to escape any more so than mass murderers who actually imprisoned deciding that they're justified in killing people and the law being wrong in holding them.
    Never had a curfew. Wouldn't have objected if I had. The reason they would be justified in escaping is because, as far as the kids are concerned, they're already soldiers. They've been fighting in a war for the survival of their very race for years now. Nothing the Avengers say can change that. They became soldiers when humans started attacking them. And in a war, POWs are always justified in attempting to escape. And yeah, they are POWs, because they're being held to keep them from fighting a war. They're not being tortured. It's a very nice prison. But they're still self-declared soldiers being detained by an opposing faction for the duration of a war.

  3. #333
    True Superior Spider-Man Kurolegacy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mikekerrIII View Post
    Who came to utopia to take someone by force if necessary, Who refused to back off? Who invaded the kids home to take one of them? the answer to all those qquestions is the Avengers> the Avengers brought the fight to the island
    So you're saying that if you were in Cap's position, you would have gone to Utopia completely alone? You act as though he came storming to Utopia, breaking down the door demanding Hope. And considering the fate of the world is on the line, what hero do you know would back down to a simple no? And just as has been said multiple times now, they brought the kids to the Avengers Academy to keep them out of the fighting. Had they stayed on Utopia, can you honestly expect them to have just sat out this entire war or head in themselves? Also, as shown in the book, adults who are aligned with the X-Men agreed to come along as chaperones thus making them the first adults on the X-Men side to actually do something sensible for doing the very thing Cyclops should have done from the start.
    Last edited by Kurolegacy; 05-03-2012 at 12:46 AM.
    Holding out for a Peter/Miles team up.

  4. #334
    Elder Member mikekerrIII's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tiamatican View Post
    They're not against mutants on an individual basis. What have they ever done for mutants as a whole?
    That is not fair they visited the mutants in the Contraction camp that was charitable even if it was on recruiting visits. An Avenger even built the big read machines that were "protecting" them there

    Quote Originally Posted by Tiamatican View Post
    You're wrong about me. I'm 27 and my mom wasn't at all restrictive. I'm simply looking at this from both sides. They may be minors, but they're still being forcibly detained in a secure facility and being threatened with violence if they attempt to leave. And it's because the Avengers don't want to have to fight them when they're dealing with other stuff. There are any number of adults who could have stayed with them on Utopia, but the point isn't supervision, the point is detainment for the duration of the war. This makes them prisoners of war, and the Academy itself a prison.
    I guess the idea that a combatant taken in war is a prisoner of war escapes people, and that were prisoners of war are held is called a POW camp.
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  5. #335
    Pure Hellcatnip Lady_Alternate's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tiamatican View Post
    Why, exactly, should the kids trust a damned word out of any of their mouths?
    Sadly, it doesn't matter whether they do or not (and clearly they don't) - it matters that Rao and Madison trust Pym (which, by the end of the issue we see Madison at least does), because they are adults and responsible for the children. They have made the choice, and whether the kids like it or not, it was made with the kids' best interests at heart, and they should respect it.

    Grumble, moan, complain - all fine, all expected. Act like prisoners of war with a "duty to escape" - no. Because the people they'd be "escaping" from are the ones who have looked out for them and looked after them, some of whom share the same X-genes and carry the same weight and responsibility on their shoulders.
    Women are beautiful. But we're not here for your goddamn titillation.- junesdisco

  6. #336
    Elder Member mikekerrIII's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kurolegacy View Post
    So you're saying that if you were in Cap's position, you would have gone to Utopia completely alone? You act as though he came storming to Utopia, breaking down the door demanding Hope. And considering the fate of the world is on the line, what hero do you know would back down to a simple no? And just as has been said multiple times now, they brought the kids to the Avengers Academy to keep them out of the fighting. Had they stayed on Utopia, can you honestly expect them to have just sat out this entire war or head in themselves? Also, as shown in the book, adults who are aligned with the X-Men agreed to come along as chaperones thus making them the first adults on the X-Men side to actually do something sensible for doing the very thing Cyclops should have done from the start.
    He came to utopia demanding hope and said he was not asking < he cam prepared to back that demand with great force.

    I don't expect them to sit out the War at the Academy, I think that expecting them to was a really dumb mistake on Caps part since if they chose to head into the fight that puts the Academy kids at great risk. At least on Utopia the AA kids would not be in the path of the battle, Cap assured that they are since he made them combatants he gave them a soldiers duties.

    I don' think that the Adults had much choice in the matter the AA or Jail isn't much of a choice
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  7. #337
    Former Lurker Old Sparky's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tiamatican View Post
    And in a war, POWs are always justified in attempting to escape. And yeah, they are POWs, because they're being held to keep them from fighting a war. They're not being tortured. It's a very nice prison. But they're still self-declared soldiers being detained by an opposing faction for the duration of a war.
    Which is the reason they were put in protective custody... this could be viewed as a war and these minors want to be soldiers. MINORS, as in not legally allowed to make such self-declarations. It doesn't matter that they're powerful and/or experienced. They've been removed from the combat for their own good the same way you would take an 11 year old off the city streets of a major metropolitan city after midnight... even if the kid is a 3rd degree black belt in karate and in possession of a firearm with which he is considered an expert marksman due to being trained by his dad since he was six years old. You don't allow children to make these kinds of decisions. But taking such an 11 year old into custody until his parent or legal guardian comes for him is not prison.

    Calling the AA/X-kids situation prison is not seeing both sides of the situation even if you claim that it is the right decision. That sounds more like an ends-justify-the-means argument, and this situation isn't that case.

  8. #338
    Elder Member mikekerrIII's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Old Sparky View Post
    Which is the reason they were put in protective custody... this could be viewed as a war and these minors want to be soldiers. MINORS, as in not legally allowed to make such self-declarations. It doesn't matter that they're powerful and/or experienced. They've been removed from the combat for their own good the same way you would take an 11 year old off the city streets of a major metropolitan city after midnight... even if the kid is a 3rd degree black belt in karate and in possession of a firearm with which he is considered an expert marksman due to being trained by his dad since he was six years old. You don't allow children to make these kinds of decisions. But taking such an 11 year old into custody until his parent or legal guardian comes for him is not prison.

    Calling the AA/X-kids situation prison is not seeing both sides of the situation even if you claim that it is the right decision. That sounds more like an ends-justify-the-means argument, and this situation isn't that case.
    I was in the military when I was the same age as many of those kids. Even Pixie is very close to 17.

    They have been soldiers for a long time. It kind of goes the the territory of being randomly attacked becasue of your genes with no law or government interested in protecting you.
    Pain shared is divided, joy shared is multiplied

  9. #339
    Bieber My Balls Tiamatican's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Old Sparky View Post
    Which is the reason they were put in protective custody... this could be viewed as a war and these minors want to be soldiers. MINORS, as in not legally allowed to make such self-declarations. It doesn't matter that they're powerful and/or experienced. They've been removed from the combat for their own good the same way you would take an 11 year old off the city streets of a major metropolitan city after midnight... even if the kid is a 3rd degree black belt in karate and in possession of a firearm with which he is considered an expert marksman due to being trained by his dad since he was six years old. You don't allow children to make these kinds of decisions. But taking such an 11 year old into custody until his parent or legal guardian comes for him is not prison.

    Calling the AA/X-kids situation prison is not seeing both sides of the situation even if you claim that it is the right decision. That sounds more like an ends-justify-the-means argument, and this situation isn't that case.
    They don't want to be soldiers. They are soldiers. They have been for a while. They stayed on Utopia because of it. It's not the life they want, it's the life they were forced into by humans trying to kill them just for existing. As soldiers, they're being detained by another force their side is fighting against. This makes them, pretty much by definition, prisoners of war. The Avengers may not see it that way, but it's the reality of the situation. And as POWs, the kids will be justified in attempting to escape their prison.

    A key difference between the X-kids and the kid in your example? Your kid was never targeted by the same government the people taking him into custody work for. The government has repeatedly tried to detain or kill mutants. You may recall that the entire reason the mutants moved onto Utopia was because the government was trying to arrest them all. Osborn was the one doing it, but he was acting, at that time, with the authorization of the US government. And now the new top cop just came to Utopia and tried to arrest all the mutants again, and took the kids into custody, then told them they would be held there by force if necessary.

    Neither side is actually in the wrong here. But that doesn't change the fact that the kids are POWs.

  10. #340
    Senior Member Stopu's Avatar
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    Just one question.... Laurie, wtf are you doing playing a race?! I HATE YOU.

  11. #341
    ❤ Walking with thee ❤ Ian Pressman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mikekerrIII View Post
    I guess the idea that a combatant taken in war is a prisoner of war escapes people, and that were prisoners of war are held is called a POW camp.
    The New X-men weren't combatants, they were specifically left out of hostilities. That makes them by-standers. Kids being detained by family services wouldn't be allowed to leave as they like either, so why should they? Because they're mutants? Nice race card.
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  12. #342

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    Young Sage....? WTF is that?

  13. #343
    Pure Hellcatnip Lady_Alternate's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tiamatican View Post
    They don't want to be soldiers. They are soldiers. They have been for a while. They stayed on Utopia because of it. It's not the life they want, it's the life they were forced into by humans trying to kill them just for existing. As soldiers, they're being detained by another force their side is fighting against. This makes them, pretty much by definition, prisoners of war. The Avengers may not see it that way, but it's the reality of the situation. And as POWs, the kids will be justified in attempting to escape their prison.

    A key difference between the X-kids and the kid in your example? Your kid was never targeted by the same government the people taking him into custody work for. The government has repeatedly tried to detain or kill mutants. You may recall that the entire reason the mutants moved onto Utopia was because the government was trying to arrest them all. Osborn was the one doing it, but he was acting, at that time, with the authorization of the US government. And now the new top cop just came to Utopia and tried to arrest all the mutants again, and took the kids into custody, then told them they would be held there by force if necessary.

    Neither side is actually in the wrong here. But that doesn't change the fact that the kids are POWs.
    Just as a point of interest so I can understand where you're coming from, say the kid in Sparky's example has grown up among a religious cult, that has a militia. He's been raised and trained to fight to defend his people, seen persecution and fear from the local people whenever they've interacted with them, and when the authorities finally come in and arrest the adults, taking the kids (including Example Boy) into protective custody, his training, belief and experience tells him that his duty is to escape.

    Would you then consider Example Boy to be a prisoner of war, as I'm sure he himself does?

    I just want to know where you find the divide to be.
    Women are beautiful. But we're not here for your goddamn titillation.- junesdisco

  14. #344
    Former Lurker Old Sparky's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tiamatican View Post
    Neither side is actually in the wrong here. But that doesn't change the fact that the kids are POWs.
    Right. And Cyclops is the new Hitler. Whatever, I'm done arguing with you. Not because you're right, but because you refuse to accept the concept of protective custody based on the fact that these kids want to fight. Who cares what THEY want. They're kids... and maybe the government has treated mutants harshly in the past, but Captain America opposed that same government and was virtually assassinated on his way to trial for treason... what did he do? He stood up for the rights of individuals. Yeah, he's nobody to trust. But you're right --in your mind-- and the kids are prisoners of war. Plus, anyone that isn't a mutant hates all mutants and life in the Marvel Universe equates to mutants vs everybody.

    For the rational thinkers out there, however, the kids --regardless of their power, experiences, or desires-- are still kids. They're no different than kids in foreign lands who have guns put in their hands at an early age to fight against the big, oppressive American government. They should be removed from the combat, not punished, because they are still children. Some of the X-kids are 17? Almost 18? Great... and when they turn 18, they can pick a side and join the "war." War might be over by then? Good, all the better.

  15. #345
    ❤ Walking with thee ❤ Ian Pressman's Avatar
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    This is the first comic forum I've ever started posting on, and I have to say that the passionate responses of the people who feel so invested in their favorite characters is--bewildering and frightening. This is supposed to be fun!
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