Ultimate Spider-man #10 Spoilers / Discussion.

[Plawsky]

UCSM is still more well received in all aspects (sales, critics, etc.). It is for all intents and purposes, the better book.

So I suppose this is your change of heart in realizing that Millar's Ultimates is superior to Loeb's and is, for all intents an purposes, the better book?

-Sales mean nothing but popularity. Transformers 3 made a billion dollars.
-Critical reaction goes a bit further. However, it's not like USM, aside from the Eisner nod, is blowing Ultimates out of the water critically. Around here, Ultimates certainly seems to be the preferred book, and reviews I've seen around the web are positive for both books, with neither really standing above the other.
-I'm curious what "etc" means in your post. In what other measurable aspect is Ultimate Spider-man outperforming Ultimates?

It's also more new reader friendly which is something the other three titles of the relaunch unfortunately lacked. What's the point of a relaunch if it's not new reader friendly? You said it yourself that UCTU isn't very new reader friendly.

First off, I didn't say that. I acknowledged that new readers might miss some things, but I still think they can follow the book just fine.

Secondly, I agree that USM is more new reader friendly. But so what? That doesn't make it a better comic book. It might make it a better book for new readers, but that's not Marvel's only demographic. A relaunch doesn't have to reset everything to zero. New Ultimates was no more new reader friendly than Hickman's Ultimates; a new reader would have no idea who Zarda is, why Thor is "dead," or why Black Panther doesn't talk. Not only was that after a relaunch, it was called "NEW" Ultimates.

[Codah]

Cool. Reminds me that is my problem with X-men sounds like its going to be too Kitty focused. Ultimates at least spreads the panel time.

I do not accept your opinion on this. There is never enough Ultimate Kitty.

[wyokid]

So I suppose this is your change of heart in realizing that Millar's Ultimates is superior to Loeb's and is, for all intents an purposes, the better book?

-Sales mean nothing but popularity. Transformers 3 made a billion dollars.
-Critical reaction goes a bit further. However, it's not like USM, aside from the Eisner nod, is blowing Ultimates out of the water critically. Around here, Ultimates certainly seems to be the preferred book, and reviews I've seen around the web are positive for both books, with neither really standing above the other.
-I'm curious what "etc" means in your post. In what other measurable aspect is Ultimate Spider-man outperforming Ultimates?

First off, I didn't say that. I acknowledged that new readers might miss some things, but I still think they can follow the book just fine.

Secondly, I agree that USM is more new reader friendly. But so what? That doesn't make it a better comic book. It might make it a better book for new readers, but that's not Marvel's only demographic. A relaunch doesn't have to reset everything to zero. New Ultimates was no more new reader friendly than Hickman's Ultimates; a new reader would have no idea who Zarda is, why Thor is "dead," or why Black Panther doesn't talk. Not only was that after a relaunch, it was called "NEW" Ultimates.

You doubted that it was superior so I provided ways it was.

Etc: character development, fleshed out cast, dialogue that feels like REAL people talking, and more.

My father is having a difficult time following it and he is a new reader. His favorite one is UCSM by the way.

I'm not here to talk about PAST books, only the PRESENT books. No New Ultimates wasn't new reader friendly but that's a moot point seeing how it is no longer being published.

I do not accept your opinion on this. There is never enough Ultimate Kitty.

UNLESS she is dating Peter.

[sage6paths]

UNLESS she is dating Peter.

I didn't like her dating Peter either but Kitty and Miles would make a cute couple.

[Plawsky]

You doubted that it was superior so I provided ways it was.

I didn't doubt anything. I don't think it's superior. I'm not out to prove it one way or another.

Etc: character development, fleshed out cast, dialogue that feels like REAL people talking, and more.

Right, things that are all opinions. With the possible exception of dialogue, I don't think that stuff is any better in Ultimate Spider-man. As far as a supporting cast goes, USM really only has Ganke, Aaron, and Scorpion. Third-wheel-roommate has so much potential, and I think he'll be a great character once Bendis starts to use him, but that hasn't happened yet. There have been some good scenes with Miles's parents, but they've got nothing on Aunt May. I'd also say that the dialogue in Ultimates is superior, but they are going for two very different styles of dialogue, and they're both pretty solid.

However, these things are all unquantifiable, so it's not really pertinent.

I'm not here to talk about PAST books, only the PRESENT books.

I get that, but I was merely pointing out a flaw in your logic. If you really think that these things make a book better, then you should apply those same rules to everything else. You can't just make up new guidelines every time they fit the conversation at hand.

[PhilUrich'sFlamingSword]

Loved the issue. Prowler is definitely becoming Miles' Osborn. His lecture even included the whole "you have a responsibility to me" line.

I LOVED that homage while reading. I absolutely think this is the sort of dynamic Bendis is going for between Aaron and Miles. I'm still holding out hope that the ACTUAL Norman Osborn is alive (his whole thing is constant evolution, and he survived 'death' once already...), however, which would only serve to muddy things further, and thus make them more awesome. The tension being built here is palpable.

Wow, I can't believe how awesome Marquez' art is. No offense to Pichelli but I seriously hope Marquez stays on long-term. His artwork fits the tone of the book so well and Posnor (like always) compliments it perfectly. This issue was great.

Yeah, I was (and still am) a big Pichelli supporter (okay, I sort of have a crush on her, okay? Just don't tell Suzie Dalton...she'll tell everybody), but this issue had the best art of the series thus far, in my opinion. I was especially impressed by the various and distinct facial expressions shown by Miles and Aaron during their conversation.

In case no one else figured it out I'll just put this out there. I've been saying this for a while, but in the cases of both Invincible and Walking Dead, Kirkman writes his stories in a fashion where every 12 issues could count as a "Season" (had it been on TV rather than in a written medium). The new Ultimate Comics seem to be following suit; Notice how the new "Season" of Ultimates starts with #13, same goes for Spidey and X-Men. In Ultimates Season 1 is the whole City and Reed thing, in X-Men it's the whole Stryker/Sentinel/Camp Angel/Jean/God thing, and in in Spidey it's the whole Prowler/Scorpion thing.

Season 2 of the new UU will be Divided We Fall (across all 3 books).

So yes the story is sort of dragging, but only because the whole story is taking place across 12 issues, as opposed to before where traditionally 6 issues was the most we'd get for a complete story/arc. Ignoring the issue count, if you read issues #1-12 (Season 1) in one sitting it'll (theoretically) read as a more fleshed out and proper story.

My only complaint with the pacing is that each issue only takes me eight to ten minutes to read, tops. It's an odd mix of being blown away by the art and great dialogue, as well as the gradually building tension, and feeling as if there wasn't enough there at the same time. Once

the first 'season', as you aptly put it, is complete, I intend to read issues one-twelve again, this time all in one sitting, and if things go as I expect, I will have my high opinion of the series re-iterated, and my disdain for how quickly I devour each issue mitigated by the fact that there's

almost always another issue beginning immediately. I continue to be shocked by how great I'm finding this new series to be, especially given how incredulous I was once I, like everyone, was spoiled as to the ending of 'Death of Spider-Man' a few days before the final issue due to an

intentional media leak on Marvel's part (yeah, the title should have been a giveaway, but I had refused to believe it would actually happen - after all, they teased doing it during Ultimatum, but had him survive at the last minute, so I figured that would be the end of that idea for a while). To think that Bendis succeeded not only in writing the perfect closing chapter to Peter's story as

Spider-Man, but has sucked me completely into the story of his successor as well, who I may have been slightly predisposed to find lacking (unfairly, and due entirely to who he was not than to who he was; luckily, my bias was overcome by the breath of fresh air that is Miles Morales

and his world thus far.) If it wasn't for the high-concept, sparkling shrine to awesome that is Hickman's Ultimates, Ultimate Spidey would be the best book I currently read from Marvel. Ultimate Peter Parker (may he rest in peace) is still my favorite comic book character of all time,

but he had an eleven year run, and the chance at what so few major characters in serial fiction get: a definitive story, with a beginning, middle, and end. He will always be my favorite, and I'll

eventually re-read the entire first two volumes of Ultimate Spider-Man in order, in as short a period of time as possible. I've only ever read it issue to issue, and it's already obviously a classic, but I want to see if it truly seems like one long story, as it seemed to while reading monthly. That said, I would be pissed if they ever bring Peter back. He had his run, he did his

best, he was a true hero through and through, and as Cap said, eventually he would have been 'the best out of all of us'. Rest in peace, Pete, and let your legend grow. Now it's Miles' turn to pick up your mantle and become a hero in his own right. Hopefully, ten or eleven years

down the line, we'll be looking back at the one-hundred fifty or so issues of the Miles Morales era and reflecting on how ballsy the move was in the first place, but that it's produced

something great. Fun to hope for, anyway. Comics are great. Good times.

[nosocialize100]

I LOVED that homage while reading. I absolutely think this is the sort of dynamic Bendis is going for between Aaron and Miles. I'm still holding out hope that the ACTUAL Norman Osborn is alive (his whole thing is constant evolution, and he survived 'death' once already...), however, which would only serve to muddy things further, and thus make them more awesome. The tension being built here is palpable.



Yeah, I was (and still am) a big Pichelli supporter (okay, I sort of have a crush on her, okay? Just don't tell Suzie Dalton...she'll tell everybody), but this issue had the best art of the series thus far, in my opinion. I was especially impressed by the various and distinct facial expressions shown by Miles and Aaron during their conversation.



My only complaint with the pacing is that each issue only takes me eight to ten minutes to read, tops. It's an odd mix of being blown away by the art and great dialogue, as well as the gradually building tension, and feeling as if there wasn't enough there at the same time. Once

the first 'season', as you aptly put it, is complete, I intend to read issues one-twelve again, this time all in one sitting, and if things go as I expect, I will have my high opinion of the series re-iterated, and my disdain for how quickly I devour each issue mitigated by the fact that there's

almost always another issue beginning immediately. I continue to be shocked by how great I'm finding this new series to be, especially given how incredulous I was once I, like everyone, was spoiled as to the ending of 'Death of Spider-Man' a few days before the final issue due to an

intentional media leak on Marvel's part (yeah, the title should have been a giveaway, but I had refused to believe it would actually happen - after all, they teased doing it during Ultimatum, but had him survive at the last minute, so I figured that would be the end of that idea for a while). To think that Bendis succeeded not only in writing the perfect closing chapter to Peter's story as

Spider-Man, but has sucked me completely into the story of his successor as well, who I may have been slightly predisposed to find lacking (unfairly, and due entirely to who he was not than to who he was; luckily, my bias was overcome by the breath of fresh air that is Miles Morales

and his world thus far.) If it wasn't for the high-concept, sparkling shrine to awesome that is Hickman's Ultimates, Ultimate Spidey would be the best book I currently read from Marvel. Ultimate Peter Parker (may he rest in peace) is still my favorite comic book character of all time,

but he had an eleven year run, and the chance at what so few major characters in serial fiction get: a definitive story, with a beginning, middle, and end. He will always be my favorite, and I'll

eventually re-read the entire first two volumes of Ultimate Spider-Man in order, in as short a period of time as possible. I've only ever read it issue to issue, and it's already obviously a classic, but I want to see if it truly seems like one long story, as it seemed to while reading monthly. That said, I would be pissed if they ever bring Peter back. He had his run, he did his

best, he was a true hero through and through, and as Cap said, eventually he would have been 'the best out of all of us'. Rest in peace, Pete, and let your legend grow. Now it's Miles' turn to pick up your mantle and become a hero in his own right. Hopefully, ten or eleven years

down the line, we'll be looking back at the one-hundred fifty or so issues of the Miles Morales era and reflecting on how ballsy the move was in the first place, but that it's produced

something great. Fun to hope for, anyway. Comics are great. Good times.

I'd roughly equate this series as each issue being 20 minutes of a hour long TV show, complete with 2 commercial breaks i.e. the story has at least two scenes. But you can't complete an episode until 3 issues.

[Balfro]

I'm noticing over on the Marvel Comics Wikia that someone has labelled Miles' parents as Jefferson Davis and Rio Morales... Did I miss something or is somebody over there just making up names?

[Chaos_Alfa]

I'm noticing over on the Marvel Comics Wikia that someone has labelled Miles' parents as Jefferson Davis and Rio Morales... Did I miss something or is somebody over there just making up names?

Bendis revealed them in an interview if remember correctly.

[Robbie_Jee]

I didn't like her dating Peter either but Kitty and Miles would make a cute couple.

I seriously doubt Kitty would find a 13 year old boy attractive. She's growing into a fine woman now and it'll be decades yet (realtime) until Miles is old enough where it won't be creepy.

I didn't doubt anything. I don't think it's superior. I'm not out to prove it one way or another.

No but you're debating your opinon against his. And Wyokid vice-versa. And as for debating the two titles, I see you chose to ignore my post yesterday in the What do you think of Ultimate Comics: Ultimates #9 thread.

Right, things that are all opinions. With the possible exception of dialogue, I don't think that stuff is any better in Ultimate Spider-man. As far as a supporting cast goes, USM really only has Ganke, Aaron, and Scorpion. Third-wheel-roommate has so much potential, and I think he'll be a great character once Bendis starts to use him, but that hasn't happened yet. There have been some good scenes with Miles's parents, but they've got nothing on Aunt May. I'd also say that the dialogue in Ultimates is superior, but they are going for two very different styles of dialogue, and they're both pretty solid.

However, these things are all unquantifiable, so it's not really pertinent.

Personally I think the dialogue in both titles has been of such high quality that there's no need to compare the two in terms of how excellent the word play may seem. It's just that the Ultimates moves at such a break-neck speed sometimes that it makes the entire story feel less substantial and thorough. Surely a substantial and thorough plot design is how every story should be written? If you want to complain about how much you're getting each issue, complain about the page count or blame Marvel. I don't think a writer should have to accomodate his writing for a smaller page count if it means giving the reader less plot details and less interesting information within the scenes and between them. That's what I mean about thorough storytelling. Wyokid was debating the story arc as a whole. Not issue by issue content or 'bang for your buck'. We should be considering each issue as merely a chapter to a much bigger story.

This is why I feel Hickman has edited his issues way too much. It's like he's rushing to ready up for Humphries.

I get that, but I was merely pointing out a flaw in your logic. If you really think that these things make a book better, then you should apply those same rules to everything else. You can't just make up new guidelines every time they fit the conversation at hand.

I believe he was. But by saying this it seems as though you want to veer off the subect and discuss other titles. What's Millar got to do with this conversation?

Also can I just point out that Hickman's first few issues on the title were REALLY un-new-reader-friendly. I've listened to a great deal podcasts that prove this. But I do agree with you that this does not entirely effect the quality of the book as a whole. For me, issue #1 was understandable and I enjoyed it. But what Wyo said about the book not being very accessable to new readers is actually very true.

[Balfro]

Bendis revealed them in an interview if remember correctly.

Ah. Did he state why they have different last names?

[Number_5]

Ah. Did he state why they have different last names?

Perhaps they are slightly non-traditional in the sense that the wife kept her own last name. And they agreed to let the child have the mother's name. That does happen in real life.

[Chaos_Alfa]

Ah. Did he state why they have different last names?

This he did not.

[Balfro]

This he did not.

If anything her last name should be Rio Morales-Davis, if not just Davis. Either they aren't really married or she's an extremely modern woman.

[PhilUrich'sFlamingSword]

If anything her last name should be Rio Morales-Davis, if not just Davis. Either they aren't really married or she's an extremely modern woman.

Well, to be fair, this is pretty much an extremely modern comic...so I'm going to go with her choosing to keep her maiden name, as a great many women do today, and the two mutually agreeing to give Miles her last name. Unless something different is shown within the story, this works as well as anything, right?