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  1. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by Spider-Dragon View Post
    When one travels back in time and changes something and then returns to the altered present they and they alone are aware of the changes to the timeline.
    So true...I mean this is basic science!

    SW

  2. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by stephen wacker View Post
    So true...I mean this is basic science!

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    Wacker, what did you mean by this being the last year of Peter Parker as Spidey?

  3. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by stephen wacker View Post
    So true...I mean this is basic science!

    SW
    Actually it's more of a theory since time travel isn't possible, but in every scifi story involving time travel to the past the one doing the traveling always retains the memory of the original timeline and is aware of the changes made when they return to the present.

    Which means existing outside of time or not Mephisto retains the knowledge of the OMD deal because he is the one that time traveled to the past and made the changes.



    Quote Originally Posted by One More Day View Post
    Wacker, what did you mean by this being the last year of Peter Parker as Spidey?

    Ummm...he probably means exactly what he said.

    This is going to be Peter Parker's last year as Spider-Man.
    Last edited by Spider-Dragon; 05-05-2012 at 12:23 PM.

  4. #49
    Senior Member Ed Sizzers's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Spider-Dragon View Post
    Actually it's more of a theory since time travel isn't possible, but in every scifi story involving time travel to the past the one doing the traveling always retains the memory of the original timeline and is aware of the changes made when they return to the present.
    Yep. All get's a bit paradoxy otherwise. Course, as we're talking magic time-travel and not flux-capacitor/type 40 time travel (and given that it's all made up anyway!), there's nothing set in stone.

    Still, even if Mephisto doesn't remember what he did (and just wonders why he had a faint craving for breadcrumbs on one day, a few years ago), there are still a bazillion(ish) ways the whole deal could be undone/reversed when and if someone in charge decides that's what they want. It's just a magic spell in a comic book. Doctor Strange could sneeze and undo it accidentally. And that would still be slightly more plausible than OMD in the first place.
    Last edited by Ed Sizzers; 05-05-2012 at 12:29 PM.

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  5. #50
    Spider-man/DCU Moderator ShaggyB's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Spider-Dragon View Post
    I just realized something even if Mephisto doesn't exist outside of time (even though I believe he does) he'd still remember the deal being made.

    When one travels back in time and changes something and then returns to the altered present they and they alone are aware of the changes to the timeline.

    That red pigeon (Mephisto in disguise) went back in time to let Eddie out of the car and then returned to the present. Due to being the time traveler Mephisto would be aware of the changes to the timeline and not be affected by them.

    Another example would be Marty McFly in the Back To The Future. He altered his parents' past and was aware of the changes that were made when he returned to the present. That means he retained the knowledge of the original timeline and was unaffected by those changes himself.

    So...existing outside of time or not since Mephisto is responsible for making the changes to the timeline he and he alone has knowledge of the original timeline in which the deal was made, is unaffected by the changes in the timeline, and is fully aware of the changes made in the altered reality.


    I shoot, I score! Booyah!!!!
    The problem with that is we've never seen the bird turn into Mephisto to prove it is in fact him in an alternate form and not just some (to borrow a term from Green Lantern) construct or a lacky he has created. Even back in OMD the bird leads peter to version of himself.... but it is never shown to be Mephisto. We also have no proof the bird went back to the present time. It simply flies off panel and is never seen again.

    And it all depends on what time travel style marvel is using at the time. Recall AOA: Legion, after killing his father, ceases to exist. The bird that is now from a future that doesnt exist could simply cease to be. We dont see it ever again.... so how do we know it didnt just vanish from existence once Eddie left the car?

    Put it this way: Legion ceased to be when he killed his father and thus never could live to go back in time. Mephisto's bird opens the car lock and Eddie leaves the car. When he does he prevents the marriage. Without the Marriage, Mephisto has nothing to desire in a trade with Peter. Thus he doesnt (as shown in OMIT) and that would mean he doesnt have a reason to go back in time. (keep in mind that is from the new timeline not the old one.)

  6. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by ShaggyB View Post
    The problem with that is we've never seen the bird turn into Mephisto to prove it is in fact him in an alternate form and not just some (to borrow a term from Green Lantern) construct or a lacky he has created. Even back in OMD the bird leads peter to version of himself.... but it is never shown to be Mephisto. We also have no proof the bird went back to the present time. It simply flies off panel and is never seen again.

    And it all depends on what time travel style marvel is using at the time. Recall AOA: Legion, after killing his father, ceases to exist. The bird that is now from a future that doesnt exist could simply cease to be. We dont see it ever again.... so how do we know it didnt just vanish from existence once Eddie left the car?

    Put it this way: Legion ceased to be when he killed his father and thus never could live to go back in time. Mephisto's bird opens the car lock and Eddie leaves the car. When he does he prevents the marriage. Without the Marriage, Mephisto has nothing to desire in a trade with Peter. Thus he doesnt and that would mean he doesnt go back in time. (keep in mind thats from the new timeline not the old one.)

    Mephisto is the one responsible for the changes to the timeline which makes him like a time traveler. If the pigeon isn't him in disguise he still sent the red pigeon to the past. The one who messes with the timeline is immune to its effects and remembers the original timeline and as a result notices the changes in the altered reality.

    I don't know if you ever saw the movie Frequency, but in it a son talks to his deceased father in the past through an old CB radio during the time of a solar storm. The son changes the past while still in the present by talking to his father in the past. The son remembers the original timeline and the new one created via the changes to the past.

    Basically the one messing with the timeline regardless of how it is done remembers the original and the new.
    Last edited by Spider-Dragon; 05-05-2012 at 05:31 PM.

  7. #52
    Spider-man/DCU Moderator ShaggyB's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Spider-Dragon View Post
    Mephisto is the one responsible for the changes to the timeline which makes him like a time traveler. If the pigeon isn't him in disguise he still sent the red pigeon to the past. The one who messes with the timeline is immune to its effects and remembers the original timeline and as a result notices the changes in the altered reality.

    I don't know if you ever saw the movie Frequency, but in it a son talks to his deceased father in the past through an old CB radio during the time of a solar storm. The son changes the past while still in the present by talking to his father in the past. The son remembers the original timeline and the new one created via the changes to the past.

    Basically the one messing with the timeline regardless of how it is done remembers the original and the new.
    Marvel didnt write Frequency, so its not something we can really hold them to in regards to time travel stories. Age of Apocalypse suggest they do the version of time travel that ive described. Can you point me to a story that operates under the same premise as Frequency that is a Marvel Comic?

    Lets go with this scenario that opperates under the same premise as AOA to illustrate my point. I send you back to stop Booth from killing Lincoln. It is my life's goal to build a time machine to fix said death. I send you back in my time machine. You stop Booth and Lincoln lives. One of two things now happens. Either you cease to exist because the timeline you came from ceased to be like AOA.... or you exist and are an anomaly to the timestream unlike AOA.

    I like option 1 as Marvel has proven they do that one and it makes sense to me... but lets go with 2 because you are leaning more towards 2 (marvel has done this one too). So now you come back to the new present where Lincoln lived. Would I remember sending you? Would I have built the time machine to stop the assassination of Lincoln in this timeline?

    You are the one that remembers it, not me. Im completely oblivious to the changes as the timeline never featured them for me to grow up wishing to fix.

    If Mephisto just sent his bird lacky back to open the car door and was thus changed by the time line. The bird would either cease to be or be the only thing that remembered, provided it had the capability of remembering such things. (OMIT bird doesnt talk).... So as you can see, its vastly important to prove the bird IS Mephisto for that scenario to work as the bird may be the only one to survive the time changes. (though again wed also need to prove it had the ability to reason, OMIT didnt show that like OMD did... and that it still exists after the timeline changes for us to claim it could know so....) We have nothing that proves the bird IS Mephisto in OMD and OMIT. We get that they are together... in that the bird leads peter on the path to Mephisto in OMD and it opens the door via magic in OMIT.... but that doesnt mean one and the same. (for example Blackheart is directly related to Mephisto, but they arent one and the same)

  8. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by ShaggyB View Post
    Marvel didnt write Frequency, so its not something we can really hold them to in regards to time travel stories. Age of Apocalypse suggest they do the version of time travel that ive described. Can you point me to a story that operates under the same premise as Frequency that is a Marvel Comic?

    Lets go with this scenario that opperates under the same premise as AOA to illustrate my point. I send you back to stop Booth from killing Lincoln. It is my life's goal to build a time machine to fix said death. I send you back in my time machine. You stop Booth and Lincoln lives. One of two things now happens. Either you cease to exist because the timeline you came from ceased to be like AOA.... or you exist and are an anomaly to the timestream unlike AOA.

    I like option 1 as Marvel has proven they do that one and it makes sense to me... but lets go with 2 because you are leaning more towards 2 (marvel has done this one too). So now you come back to the new present where Lincoln lived. Would I remember sending you? Would I have built the time machine to stop the assassination of Lincoln in this timeline?

    You are the one that remembers it, not me. Im completely oblivious to the changes as the timeline never featured them for me to grow up wishing to fix.

    If Mephisto just sent his bird lacky back to open the car door and was thus changed by the time line. The bird would either cease to be or be the only thing that remembered, provided it had the capability of remembering such things. (OMIT bird doesnt talk).... So as you can see, its vastly important to prove the bird IS Mephisto for that scenario to work as the bird may be the only one to survive the time changes. (though again wed also need to prove it had the ability to reason, OMIT didnt show that like OMD did... and that it still exists after the timeline changes for us to claim it could know so....) We have nothing that proves the bird IS Mephisto in OMD and OMIT. We get that they are together... in that the bird leads peter on the path to Mephisto in OMD and it opens the door via magic in OMIT.... but that doesnt mean one and the same. (for example Blackheart is directly related to Mephisto, but they arent one and the same)

    Well, I guess it's time to agree to disagree.

    I believe Mephisto is a being that exists outside of time. He's a demon. Demons, angels, and God are beings that exist outside of time and if Marvel considers Mephisto to be a demon then by the rules of common sense he's a being that exists outside of time otherwise he's not a demon.


    Technically though I think the deal maybe losing its grip in this post-OMD reality.

    Mephisto stated in OMD that he wanted Peter and Mary Jane's love and their marriage.

    In the Spider-Island Mary Jane said that she loved Peter. So much for Mephisto taking their love away.
    Last edited by Spider-Dragon; 05-05-2012 at 08:47 PM.

  9. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by Spider-Dragon View Post
    Actually it's more of a theory since time travel isn't possible, but in every scifi story involving time travel to the past the one doing the traveling always retains the memory of the original timeline and is aware of the changes made when they return to the present.

    Which means existing outside of time or not Mephisto retains the knowledge of the OMD deal because he is the one that time traveled to the past and made the changes.
    Thanks for pointing out that time travel is a theory. I had heard differently.

    Regardless, it's all juzt made up stuff. So just because there are rules in one story you read somewhere,it's pretty meaningless in another story.

    Quote Originally Posted by Spider-Dragon View Post
    Ummm...he probably means exactly what he said.
    This is going to be Peter Parker's last year as Spider-Man.
    I don't think I said that.

    Why do people type "ummmm".


    SW

  10. #55
    Senior Member Ed Sizzers's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by stephen wacker View Post
    Why do people type "ummmm".
    Because you can't ask that question unless you do.

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  11. #56
    Senior Member Khajit's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Spider-Dragon View Post

    Mephisto stated in OMD that he wanted Peter and Mary Jane's love and their marriage.
    In the Spider-Island Mary Jane said that she loved Peter. So much for Mephisto taking their love away.
    Sounds more like it's a way for Mephisto to screw MJ and Peter over to me personally. They broke the deal even though they cant remember it. He can now do whatever he wants or exact retribution for breach of contract.
    Last edited by Khajit; 05-06-2012 at 06:49 AM.

  12. #57
    Moderator Mister Mets's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Spider-Dragon View Post
    If Mephisto had no knowledge of the deal then he would have no control over the specific events to form the post-OMD reality. In disguise Mephisto was the red pigeon and the nurse dressed in red.

    Mephisto as the red pigeon claimed what he wanted...the marriage.

    Mephisto as the nurse dressed in red gave Peter and Mary Jane what they wanted...his power made it possible for Peter to save his aunt May via CPR and then he ratted Peter out to the Kingpin (if I recall correctly) which lead him to act to restore his secret identity via Dr. Strange, Reed, and Iron Man.

    Mephisto took action after the deal was made if he had no knowledge of the deal after it was made then he wouldn't have been able to take action in the first place and Peter and Mary Jane would still be married.


    Mephisto's very action to undo the marriage is proof that he remembers making the deal.
    The nurse could just have been a woman working for the Kingpin.

    The red pigeon could have been sent by Mephisto. It might not actually have been him.

    Motivations in time-travel stories can be complicated. Mephisto might not remember the deal, because it didn't happen in his reality.
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  13. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by Khajit View Post
    Sounds more like it's a way for Mephisto to screw MJ and Peter over to me personally. They broke the deal even though they cant remember it. He can now do whatever he wants or exact retribution for breach of contract.

    Only if he himself remembers the deal...which according to ShaggyB he doesn't.

    Of course I happen to disagree with him, but whatever.

  14. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mister Mets View Post
    The nurse could just have been a woman working for the Kingpin.

    The red pigeon could have been sent by Mephisto. It might not actually have been him.

    Motivations in time-travel stories can be complicated. Mephisto might not remember the deal, because it didn't happen in his reality.

    If Mephisto is a being that exists outside of time (which I believe he does) then technically all realities are his reality.

  15. #60

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    Is Mephisto held to his bargain to leave Peter alone? Is there some cosmic ruler above him who would hold him to it, even if he doesn't remember making it?
    Perfect humility dispenses with modesty.

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