In praise & defense of George Perez: the man who transformed DC Comics

[protonik]

Let's be real here. When he started out, he had no grasp of anatomy at all. He was not good. His exaggerated anatomy wasn't a style choice because he didn't know how else to draw. He got better over time but still was never great and recently has gone back more to the sort of art that made him famous in the first place, because clearly nostalgia just trumps everything.

He's taken classes on anatomy and perspective drawing since then. He's worked at improving himself. I feel his work on New Mutants was his best work followed by Youngblood 6-10 and the odd issue here and there. Also early on his anatomy wasn't bad per se, he made the same mistakes most rookies make. His style developed as a result of the deadline on New Mutants which ALSO happens to a lot of artists.

[Darrell D.]

He's taken classes on anatomy and perspective drawing since then. He's worked at improving himself. I feel his work on New Mutants was his best work followed by Youngblood 6-10 and the odd issue here and there. Also early on his anatomy wasn't bad per se, he made the same mistakes most rookies make. His style developed as a result of the deadline on New Mutants which ALSO happens to a lot of artists.

See, I didn't know that. But, to be honest, I haven't really looked at any of his more recent work.

[protonik]

I am an artist trained at the School of Visual arts, and aside from the fundamental instructors, I had the likes of Carmine Infantino, Tom Palmer, Klaus Janson, and Walt Simonson as teachers. No matter what their discipline (cartooning or life painting or whatever), they had about two good things to say about Liefeld: his art was dynamic, and his sense of costume design is different than the norm.

But a point of order here. Liefeld's distortion of anatomy & perspective is never consistent. Often the discrepancies occur on the same page.

Granted but this wasn't a class taught by a comic book artist but a design class.

[glennsim]

David Aja draws abnormally long torsos... difference?

Any minute now I'm going to have to bring Kelley Jones into this. Talk about distorted anatomy...

[petesake]

You are missing the point of my post then.

You're suggesting that it's just a matter of taste. I think that's ridiculous.

[Jeff Brady]

Granted but this wasn't a class taught by a comic book artist but a design class.

So? If your instructor had a Master's degree, she'd still be trained in fine arts. She still managed to recognize many of Liefeld's flaws (and articulated them in a way I hadn't heard before, so that's cool).

Oh, and the classes Rob has taken since then haven't seemed to stick. I mean, good GAWD, half the time he seems to have gotten worse.

[petesake]

He's taken classes on anatomy and perspective drawing since then. He's worked at improving himself. I feel his work on New Mutants was his best work followed by Youngblood 6-10 and the odd issue here and there. Also early on his anatomy wasn't bad per se, he made the same mistakes most rookies make. His style developed as a result of the deadline on New Mutants which ALSO happens to a lot of artists.

I said he got better didn't I?

[protonik]

See, I didn't know that. But, to be honest, I haven't really looked at any of his more recent work.

Well Hawk & Dove was... not that great. Deadpool Corp was ok, you could sense the deadline crunch hitting him relatively quickly but it was a lot better than some of his stuff in the mid 90s that wasn't Youngblood 6-10. I think Rob works better on miniseries or limited output where he can take his time. Examples of work that was a lot better (while still having problems) include Onslaught Reborn, Deadpool Corp., his two issues of Wolverine, 3 issues of Cable, Captain America was better than he gets credit for, Re:Gex had some nice designs going on in the page and while lacking backgrounds had a strong sense of flow from panel to panel. Youngblood: Bloodsport issue 1 was really nicely done as well.

Works that I was scratching my head on, and I am a well known Liefeld fan, were the aforementioned Hawk & Dove, his two issues of Teen Titans and that X-Force miniseries he did about 8 years ago but some of that was derailed by editorial changes to the intent of story and he had to rework the artwork largely due to those changes.

Some of the criticisms of the Onslaught series were mostly based on what people perceived as out of character actions and the artwork etc being previewed out of context. There were issues with it art wise but nothing that hurt the story in any sort of ZOMG HE SUCKED THAT PAGE sense that you will often see levied against him. It was huge, bombastic fun. There are a few panels where he used his son as the photoreference for Franklin and those panels are quite nice and show that yes, he does understand anatomy.

[protonik]

You're suggesting that it's just a matter of taste. I think that's ridiculous.

No, you just put words in my mouth. I obviously expressed it was a matter of what is en vogue. Before Hellboy people were up in arms that Mignola did a fill in on X-Force! Mignola was not a well loved or revered artist and also displayed a real problem with placing anatomy properly and in ways that hurt the image til his Hellboy style evolved over the course of his work on Batman:Gotham by Gaslight, Fafhrd & The Grey Mouser and his issue of Legends of the Dark Knight. Once he started Hellboy his whole image changed.

[protonik]

So? If your instructor had a Master's degree, she'd still be trained in fine arts. She still managed to recognize many of Liefeld's flaws (and articulated them in a way I hadn't heard before, so that's cool).

Oh, and the classes Rob has taken since then haven't seemed to stick. I mean, good GAWD, half the time he seems to have gotten worse.

Well he went back to a more classic Liefeld approach in his work because it was what his fans respond to the most, like I said in a previous post, fan service. He's catering. I think it's a bad idea myself, he does need to stretch his wings a bit more but the response has been very positive for him as far as sales and yes I know Hawk & Dove got canceled... but it's Hawk & Dove, c'mon.

[petesake]

same thing. popular taste is still a matter of taste.

i think there's legitimate ways to use the argument we're using and there's illegitimate ways. I think there's a rather obvious difference in the level of skill between mignola and liefeld, sorry.

[OBrianTallent]

I come into a thread titled about George Perez...and find people discussing...Rob Liefeld?? That's like going into a chocolate shop and finding nothing but brussel sprouts.

[protonik]

same thing. popular taste is still a matter of taste.

i think there's legitimate ways to use the argument we're using and there's illegitimate ways. I think there's a rather obvious difference in the level of skill between mignola and liefeld, sorry.

I'm not disagreeing but I feel, very definitely, that were this 1991 you would be one of those people up in arms over how bad Mignola is as an artist and complaining about his work on that Wolverine one shot he did. ;-) I think that Liefeld is an artist who is trying to find his voice as an artist and taking these projects he isn't necessarily fit for as an artist, much like Mignola was in the 80s and early 90s until he did Hellboy and found his niche. Liefeld is not as technically sound as Mignola sure but many of the same criticisms applied to Liefeld were at one time applied to Mignola so this isn't a matter of taste, it's a matter of yes, we've heard this before on other artists that weren't popular and often from people who have no idea what they are talking about and are simply parroting talking points they've heard someone else express in a fiery manner. Have you read the letters page in an issue of Eternals from the 70s for example? Arguably a tour de force on the level of his work on New Gods artistically and conceptually but the same sorts of criticisms were applied to Kirby past his death. Now I see the same criticisms being applied to GEORGE PEREZ!?! Basically the words I am using that you do not appear to be getting is instead of repeating the same parroted talking points... GET DOWN TO THE NITTY GRITTY instead of rehashing the same arguments about anatomy, perspective etc. and show me how you KNOW these are wrong instead of blanket waving. It gets so old seeing over and over again. Heck, John Byrne is a master of perspective and has extremely sound anatomy and is arguably the best storyteller in the biz but people make the same half assed comments on his work that they have leveled against Kirby, Liefeld, Mignola, Ditko (?!?) and now Perez. I'm sorry, it just invalidates that sort of argument when it is a regurgitation without properly expressing why. I will give you, very much give you, that Rob has these flaws but you aren't expressing specifics to make your arguments and you hit those talking points and say absolutely nothing and speak in these absolutes on the matter which makes it seem like your argument, which you have not based in specific examples, the final word.

In all honestly there really is no difference in what Canete does as an example and what Rob does, it is simply a matter that Canete is better skilled in those techniques but also creating artwork that many people do not find appealing and while Liefeld is technically a lesser skilled artist he has produced artwork that changed the landscape of the way comic book art is done and helped pave the way for the modern storytelling sensibilities if not actual style AND continues to produce artwork that people seek out. That is a sign of an artist that is successful in producing popular art whether he is as skilled as someone like Canete or Bachalo (who I have ALSO seen the same criticisms applied to). It's just a weaksauce argument to keep making when even his fans acknowledge these weaknesses and also point out he has done work to improve these weaknesses that definitely shows a marked improvement over the days of Youngblood: Strikefile, which is without a doubt his worst work.

[protonik]

I come into a thread titled about George Perez...and find people discussing...Rob Liefeld?? That's like going into a chocolate shop and finding nothing but brussel sprouts.

Nah, it fits, his early work was very clearly highly influenced by Perez ;-)

[OBrianTallent]

It was? I never saw anything in his early work that remotely resembled anything Perez did even in his earliest books.