CBR's 25 Greatest Spider-Man Villains #3-1

[Kevinroc]

Are you sure? Did'nt Aunt May go with Dock Ock after Gwen yell her about overprotective?

The almost wedding happened after Norman had killed Gwen.

Why do you hate Gwen?!?!??!?!?

Why do you hate MJ so much?

[E. Wilson]

Why do you hate Gwen?!?!??!?!?

Because if I have to hear about her one more time, my head a'splode. She's been dead for almost a decade before I was born. My level of not-caring about that two-dimensional cipher is extraordinary.

[One More Day]

Because if I have to hear about her one more time, my head a'splode. She's been dead for almost a decade before I was born. My level of not-caring about that two-dimensional cipher is extraordinary.

You an old man

[E. Wilson]

You an old man

Perhaps I am. But I'm also still alive. And Gwen isn't.

EDT: My bad; Gwen died in 1973, making her dead almost fifteen years before I was even born, not ten. And I'm still sick of reading about her. I mean, sheesh, people complain that bring Osborn back "lessens the impact" of Amazing 121, but you know what really, really lessens its impact? Revisiting the story every other year. I'm sick of bridges and blonds.

[stillanerd]

Why do you hate Gwen?!?!??!?!?

Well, speaking for myself, while don't hate Gwen by any means, I tend to think she's a bit overrated. When she was first introduced, she came across as someone who was attractive, clever, independent, with a sense of civic duty, while at the same time also being full of herself, had a sense of entitlement, and could easily be provoked into jealousy; that had enough ingredients to make her a dynamic love interest for Peter. But instead, once Romita replaced Ditko, and especially once she became Peter's girlfriend, she lost a lot of her fire, seeming to break into tears and cry on her dad's shoulder every other issue and became particularly needy when it came to Peter. And I've personally thought other versions of Gwen, as shown in Ultimate Spider-Man and the Spectacular Spider-Man cartoon, were far more interesting characters. And let's face it: the main reason why she's remembered so fondly today is because the Green Goblin killed her.

[KurtW95]

Well, speaking for myself, while don't hate Gwen, I tend to think she's a bit overrated. When she was first introduced, she came across as someone who was attractive, clever, independent, with a sense of civic duty, while at the same time also being full of herself, had a sense of entitlement, and could easily be provoked into jealousy; that had enough ingredients to make her a dynamic love interest for Peter. But instead, once Romita replaced Ditko, and especially once she became Peter's girlfriend, she lost a lot of her fire, seeming to break into tears and cry on her dad's shoulder every other issue and became particularly needy when it came to Peter. And I've personally thought other versions of Gwen as shown in Ultimate Spider-Man and the Spectacular Spider-Man cartoon, were far more interesting characters. And let's face it: the main reason why she's remembered so fondly today is because the Green Goblin killed her.

Overrated? She's extremely underrated.

[E. Wilson]

...so, your response to SAN's fairly well-phrased and thought-out response is one line?

[stillanerd]

Overrated? She's extremely underrated.

Well, considering all the times Gwen's death gets referenced and how quite a few fans and creators tend to place her on a pedestal--not to mention how many make the mistake of saying Gwen was Peter's first love--I don't think she's in any way underrated. Especially considering that she's in the top 5 of Spidey's supporting characters.

[Kevinroc]

Overrated? She's extremely underrated.

Gwen got 5th on the top Spidey supporting character poll. That's not bad considering she's been dead for almost 40 years now in the mainstream continuity.

Well, speaking for myself, while don't hate Gwen by any means, I tend to think she's a bit overrated. When she was first introduced, she came across as someone who was attractive, clever, independent, with a sense of civic duty, while at the same time also being full of herself, had a sense of entitlement, and could easily be provoked into jealousy; that had enough ingredients to make her a dynamic love interest for Peter. But instead, once Romita replaced Ditko, and especially once she became Peter's girlfriend, she lost a lot of her fire, seeming to break into tears and cry on her dad's shoulder every other issue and became particularly needy when it came to Peter. And I've personally thought other versions of Gwen, as shown in Ultimate Spider-Man and the Spectacular Spider-Man cartoon, were far more interesting characters. And let's face it: the main reason why she's remembered so fondly today is because the Green Goblin killed her.

You said that very well.

Well, considering all the times Gwen's death gets referenced and how quite a few fans and creators tend to place her on a pedestal--not to mention how many make the mistake of saying Gwen was Peter's first love--I don't think she's in any way underrated. Especially considering that she's in the top 5 of Spidey's supporting characters.

Poor Betty Brant.

[Xenith]

However, I do agree that the only reason why the Green Goblin is #1 is because he killed Gwen; otherwise, Doc Ock would be #1 instead of #2, as Ock has so many similarities and contrasts to Spidey to make him ideal arch-nemesis.

Maybe. While I agree that Otto is built to be a better nemesis, his list of achievements and personal relationship to Spider-Man pales in comparison to Norman's even if you remove "The Night Gwen Stacy Died" and "Sins Past".

Doctor Octopus
- Dealt Spidey his first major defeat where he considered giving up.
- First villain to unmask Spider-Man.
- Released Blackie Gaxton who killed Betty's brother dooming that relationship.
- Formed original Sinister Six
- Brain washed Spidey into becoming a criminal.
- Accidentally killed George Stacy
- Had relationship with and nearly married Aunt May.
- Nearly beat Black Cat to death, leading to Spider-Man doing the same to Otto.
- Saved Peter's life from Vultures virus.
- Blames Spider-Man for medical problems that are killing him.

Norman Osbourne
- Father to best friend Harry, whom he set down the path to becoming a Goblin.
- First to disable Peter's spider sense.
- First villain to truly learn Spider-Man's identity.
- Mastermind of the whole mindjob that was the Clone Saga.
- Killed Peter's "brother" Ben.
- Poisoned Mary Jane.
- Abducted and possibly killed Baby May (Yeah I know new continuity this did not happen, but I still own the issue where it does.)
- Abducted Aunt May and replaced her with an actress.
- Bought the Bugle.
- Kidnapped, tortured, and brainwashed Peter to become a Goblin.
- Put Flash in a drunk driving coma.
- Attempted to blackmail Peter into betraying his morals and killing him.
- Kidnapped May from prison.
And that doesn't really even include the full number of times that Norman just really messed with Peter's head like sending him photos of family and friends in their homes, or the time he strung Peter up like a pinata hung him unmasked from his glider and flew him around town...

So yeah both have had their share of victories and beatings over Spidey, but Otto has never intentionally killed someone Peter cares about, and Otto has never really intentionally just screwed with Peter's head (not counting the brief mindcontrol thing). His relationship with May was not done to mess with Peter, even his hospitalizing of Felicia was because she had played a role in stopping him and was not just done to get to Spider-Man.

So despite the fact that I like Otto a good bit more than Norman, I think I would have to give the definite nod to Norman as having intentionally made things a lot more personal and being the bigger villain and archenemy to Peter.

[stillanerd]

You said that very well.

Thanks.

Poor Betty Brant.

Yeah, Betty's has always gotten a raw deal--much of which she actually brought on herself.

[Kevinroc]

And Norman is just a mad man. We loves our mad men in fiction.

Otto isn't really the same kind of crazy.

(I loved the story where Norman goes to the villain bar with Vulture and Kraven Jr.)

Yeah, Betty's has always gotten a raw deal--much of which she actually brought on herself.

While true, I was mostly referring to the fact that people tend to forget she and Peter were ever an item.

[stillanerd]

While true, I was mostly referring to the fact that people tend to forget she and Peter were ever an item.

Oh, I know you were. I was referring to additional in-story reasons why Betty never got as popular when compared to other love interests

[matthewaos]

I'm shocked. SHOCKED!

[stillanerd]

Maybe. While I agree that Otto is built to be a better nemesis, his list of achievements and personal relationship to Spider-Man pales in comparison to Norman's even if you remove "The Night Gwen Stacy Died" and "Sins Past".

Doctor Octopus
- Dealt Spidey his first major defeat where he considered giving up.
- First villain to unmask Spider-Man.
- Released Blackie Gaxton who killed Betty's brother dooming that relationship.
- Formed original Sinister Six
- Brain washed Spidey into becoming a criminal.
- Accidentally killed George Stacy
- Had relationship with and nearly married Aunt May.
- Nearly beat Black Cat to death, leading to Spider-Man doing the same to Otto.
- Saved Peter's life from Vultures virus.
- Blames Spider-Man for medical problems that are killing him.

Norman Osbourne
- Father to best friend Harry, whom he set down the path to becoming a Goblin.
- First to disable Peter's spider sense.
- First villain to truly learn Spider-Man's identity.
- Mastermind of the whole mindjob that was the Clone Saga.
- Killed Peter's "brother" Ben.
- Poisoned Mary Jane.
- Abducted and possibly killed Baby May (Yeah I know new continuity this did not happen, but I still own the issue where it does.)
- Abducted Aunt May and replaced her with an actress.
- Bought the Bugle.
- Kidnapped, tortured, and brainwashed Peter to become a Goblin.
- Put Flash in a drunk driving coma.
- Attempted to blackmail Peter into betraying his morals and killing him.
- Kidnapped May from prison.
And that doesn't really even include the full number of times that Norman just really messed with Peter's head like sending him photos of family and friends in their homes, or the time he strung Peter up like a pinata hung him unmasked from his glider and flew him around town...

So yeah both have had their share of victories and beatings over Spidey, but Otto has never intentionally killed someone Peter cares about, and Otto has never really intentionally just screwed with Peter's head (not counting the brief mindcontrol thing). His relationship with May was not done to mess with Peter, even his hospitalizing of Felicia was because she had played a role in stopping him and was not just done to get to Spider-Man.

So despite the fact that I like Otto a good bit more than Norman, I think I would have to give the definite nod to Norman as having intentionally made things a lot more personal and being the bigger villain and archenemy to Peter.

While much of that came after he was revealed to be alive during the Clone Saga (and I'm one of those who believe Norman should have remained dead since I think bringing him back undermined the impact "The Night Gwen Stacy Died" had), you still make a very good and convincing case.