Action Comics #9 Preview/Eventual Discussion

[dupersuper]

I haven't read this yet, but it seems a bit strange that - just before the launch of Earth 2 and Worlds' Finest - we're visiting another parallel Earth. Seems to take steal their thunder, a little.

Before? They all came out the same day...

I'm surprised so many are okay with it. Considering all of that "citizen of the world, not just America" stuff, I'm surprised people aren't upset that he was set up as an American President.

Maybe there could be several world leader Supermen of other countries in Multiversity: Canadian Prime Minister Superman, British Prime Minister Superman, Austrailian Prime Minister Superman, King Superman...

[Name Already Taken]

I liked it. The use of Brainiac as a White House political protocol/care-taker was interesting in concept, even if it was brief. I wouldn't mind seeing Morrison flesh out this universe down the road.

[misslane38]

Space_Butler is right. There have been various alternate Earths throughout the years where the history varies greatly from the main Earth, much less our Earth. And there is no reason that this version of Superman cannot run for public office without letting people know of his dual identity to protect his own loved ones.

This isn't simply an issue of history or constitutionality. It's an issue about who Superman is at his core and whether or not it is morally and ethically appropriate for the POTUS to lie to the American people about an issue that has the potential to impact national security as well as the President's ability to faithfully carry out the responsibilities of being POTUS. Do the American people, for example, deserve to know their President sometimes employs something called Brainiac to do his job at the White House while the real POTUS is fighting dangerous bad guys around the world and throughout the universe? What contingency plans are in place if the POTUS is trapped in the Phantom Zone or he falls victim to mind control? Because as much as I respect and empathize with Calvin Ellis's need to protect his loved ones, the POTUS has a responsibility to protect more than just the people he holds near and dear to him.

We cannot just safely assume that the Constitution in this universe is the same as ours or not. We can hypothesize that it is, but until it becomes an actual issue, who gives a good goddamn?

I give a goddam because this is an issue that goes beyond the U.S. Constitution. I believe Nubia (Wonder Woman) and Sholly Fisch gave the same goddam for the same reasons.

Which then takes me to misslane38 who says that only bad Presidents lie, I hate to say this, but that's probably far from the truth. After all, FDR was considered a good President, but he lied about his health. Kennedy was considered to be a good President, but he was screwing women left and right. Who is to say that Washington, Lincoln or any other so-called good President didn't lie to the American public in their tenure?

Of course all Presidents lie, including the "good" ones. That doesn't mean I don't get to criticize them for the lies they told, does it? More to the point, the lies the Superman/POTUS of Earth-23 told to the American people in his universe are hardly comparable to lying about one's sexual activities. Everyone knew FDR was crippled, by the way. It wasn't a secret. I'm also sure if new information came to light about lies Washington or Lincoln told, we'd pick them apart too. It happens all the time.

Ultimately, this isn't about pointing fingers of damnation at Presidents, including the fictional POTUS of Earth-23. This about pointing out character flaws that do not by themselves warrant wholesale condemnation. Superman can be wrong and still be a fundamentally good person. He can make an unethical choice without totally undermining his essential goodness. I just think it's important to shine a light on character flaws rather than pretend they don't exist. A flawed Superman isn't an invalid or uninteresting Superman. He's just not the ideal Superman. And I believe it should be okay to express that point of view.

[Flash Gordon]

Maybe there could be several world leader Supermen of other countries in Multiversity: Canadian Prime Minister Superman, British Prime Minister Superman, Austrailian Prime Minister Superman, King Superman...

I'd love to read the Canadian Prime Minister Superman book. Why does the US have to have all the fun?!

It's an issue about who Superman is at his core and whether or not it is morally and ethically appropriate for the POTUS to lie to the American people about an issue that has the potential to impact national security as well as the President's ability to faithfully carry out the responsibilities of being POTUS.

An "honest" president is about as likely as an actual Superman.

[misslane38]

An "honest" president is about as likely as an actual Superman.

Yes, obviously, but I have different expectations for President Superman. I expect Superman to be honest. A dishonest President Superman would be a valid version of Superman. Nevertheless, he'd be a Superman who falls farther away from the ideal version of Superman than perhaps Supermen in other universes.

[The Batman]

This is an element that is brought up in the issue, it may not be resolved to your satisfaction but I enjoyed his reasoning and the counter issue raised by Nubia.

Was it resolved at all? Don't we have another issue with President Superman?

[Mr. Holmes]

And yes, this is an alternate, and those are fun. I just think the same principles would apply to every Superman on every world. It's the same reason why people had issues with Byrne's origin as a football star. Again, just an opinion. At least he was called out on it in the backup.

Do you think those principles apply to Ultraman and Superdoom? I know those are extreme examples, but the point stands - Superman doesn't have a set of guidelines that would apply to every universe.

[Auguste Dupin]

Do you think those principles apply to Ultraman and Superdoom? I know those are extreme examples, but the point stands - Superman doesn't have a set of guidelines that would apply to every universe.

Basically. You can't expect every Superman to be as morally irreprochable than the "real" one. It's going against the idea of parralel universes.
So, yes, this Superman, by trying to do good, has put himself in a position where he has to compromize his integrity to help other people. That's the good part about it (and the fact the book basically ends on that statement, even if said statement isn't made by Morrison, is probably not a coincidence).

[ForeverYoung8]

Do you think those principles apply to Ultraman and Superdoom? I know those are extreme examples, but the point stands - Superman doesn't have a set of guidelines that would apply to every universe.

I should have been a little more clear--I was talking about the good ones. The ones who go by the name "Superman". Based on what we were given in this issue, it would appear the only real difference between this Superman and "our" Superman is his skin color. So I would think they would have the same core principles because we weren't shown anything to the contrary.

After thinking about what TheBatman said, I've reconsidered my stance on the situation (you can his post a page or so back when he responded to me). I hadn't considered that thought, and now I'm okay with the idea even if I still don't like the execution (particularly in the backup). I also don't like how he would leave Brainiac in charge when he's away, and if this Superman is ever fleshed out I could see the same result happening to him with Brainiac as happened to the Soviet Superman.

I did have nice things to say about the issue, about the writing and subtext...but alas, it's the internet and people looking for arguments only see the negative aspect for discussion. Always turns into "I'm right!" "No I'm right!" "Nu-uh!" "Yeah so!" etc. so this is my last word on the subject. (not speaking directly to you, just in general)

And to (finally) answer your question regarding Ultraman, no. Was he found by a kindly couple? (I honestly don't know) If he was raised to be morally bankrupt then I would not expect him to have the same principles as a Superman who was raised to have a conscience. And the evidence suggests that the Superman in this issue, the one we're arguing about, was raised by good people.

[Mr. Holmes]

I should have been a little more clear--I was talking about the good ones. The ones who go by the name "Superman". Based on what we were given in this issue, it would appear the only real difference between this Superman and "our" Superman is his skin color. So I would think they would have the same core principles because we weren't shown anything to the contrary.

The problem is, morality is really subjective and relative. So while this Superman isn't "evil" he doesn't have to share the 100% the same moral guidelines as the DCU Superman. Your idea that he has to be exactly the same as the DCU Superman because he was raised by a "kindly couple" is a bad generalization and assumption.

[Eliseu Gouveia]

If he was raised to be morally bankrupt then I would not expect him to have the same principles as a Superman who was raised to have a conscience. And the evidence suggests that the Superman in this issue, the one we're arguing about, was raised by good people.

There are countless pople who were raised by racist, morally bankrupt thugs and yet somehow managed to overcome their upbringing and become upstanding citizens.
Personally, that only makes them more inspiring (in my eyes) than a buy scout guy who was raised by two good guys.

So I would have no problem if Jonathan and Marthat kent turned out to be two obnoxious parents, as long as Superman managed to overcome their prejudice.

[adkal]

There are countless pople who were raised by racist, morally bankrupt thugs and yet somehow managed to overcome their upbringing and become upstanding citizens.
Personally, that only makes them more inspiring (in my eyes) than a buy scout guy who was raised by two good guys.

Like the one in The Dark Side?

[Eliseu Gouveia]

Like the one in The Dark Side?

Sorry, no idea who you´re talking about.

i was thinking more in line with Cassandra Cain.
Raised by an assassin to be an assassin and becomes a superheroine instead.

[DarkKnghtJared]

Very interesting--the near direct comparison to the Siegel and Schuster case was pretty ballsy, and even if you take away that part, it was still a fun superhero story.

The whole point of the US government is that the President's power is limited.

As of right now, the President has the ability to order the assassination of any living being on the planet that he wants. That's about the exact opposite of "limited."

[adkal]

Sorry, no idea who you´re talking about.

Elseworlds story where Superman was raised on Apokolips...as Darkseid's 'son'...