Julia Diggers vs Cassandra Cain

[Kage Kisaragi]

So the problem is then figuring out what the feat really means.

Cheetah is a superspeedster. Cheetah wasn't using her speed in a serious manner.

.....

This leaves us nowhere. -_-

Sorta yeah, around issue 10-12 of the colored volume, shes at a award dinner party for her sister, and a fight breaks out and during the fight she is caught off guard and is easily grabbed by the arm and thrown across the room by a guy that looks like Mike Tyson/Balrog, she wasn't hurt but it could have been comic relief, later in those issues she seriously tries to attack another attendee and while doing do a serious attack, a spinning heel kick to this guys chin, it had utterly no effect and he was about to plant a uppercut right to her face until her husband intervened and caught the guys fist. I'd like to suggest keeping with Julia's feats against G'nolga and Zero, but its hard to say whether or not shes bullet timing, definitely faster than a normal person but the only guns i remember seeing in GD are not the normal bullet spraying tommy guns or sub machine guns in other comics, so im doubt the validity of any bullet timing feats for Julia.

[Kuro]

I read that Cass can casually dodge sniper rounds fired a few meters away. Does Julia have something on that level?

[Sharpandpointies]

I read that Cass can casually dodge sniper rounds fired a few meters away. Does Julia have something on that level?

It's more that she dodges with extreme effort a sniper round that gets within about a foot of her skull before she starts moving. When caught by surprise.

This is all levels of crazy for bullet-timing (right up there with Shang Chi's 'Turn round, have a look, "Oh, pistol bullets", dodge' feat), but consistent with some of her other outlandish speedfeats.

[lonewolf23k]

Okay, as a GD fan, I'm surprised that Julia is being so badly underestimated. Julia Diggers is a 50-year old martial artist warrior maiden who has taken down Elder Dragons. All she really needs to do is pull out the Julia Diggers Master Blow. An Unblockable, Undodgeable attack that shatters every bone in your body. The only on-screen opponent to have ever resisted that was an advanced Battle-Golem that took both her and her Arch-Mage opponent to defeat.

I like Cassandra Cain as much as you guys, but she's way out of her weight-class here. Julia's a Wonder Woman-level fighter.

[Sharkerbob]

Okay, as a GD fan, I'm surprised that Julia is being so badly underestimated. Julia Diggers is a 50-year old martial artist warrior maiden who has taken down Elder Dragons. All she really needs to do is pull out the Julia Diggers Master Blow. An Unblockable, Undodgeable attack that shatters every bone in your body. The only on-screen opponent to have ever resisted that was an advanced Battle-Golem that took both her and her Arch-Mage opponent to defeat.

I like Cassandra Cain as much as you guys, but she's way out of her weight-class here. Julia's a Wonder Woman-level fighter.

Well, like I said, I haven't read enough to see Julia's best moves, but I am encouraged by this. :)

Still, the main problem here, though is the speed. Can Julia pull off Batgirl's sniper round dodge? The Master Blow is mighty indeed, but won't do any good if she can't hit Batgirl with it (I don't recall it being undodgeable, exactly...).

Although I'm starting to wonder how Julia's durability stacks up to the damage Batgirl can dish out. Is it possible Julia can just tank Batgirl's hits until she can land a blow?

[lonewolf23k]

Well, like I said, I haven't read enough to see Julia's best moves, but I am encouraged by this. :)

Still, the main problem here, though is the speed. Can Julia pull off Batgirl's sniper round dodge? The Master Blow is mighty indeed, but won't do any good if she can't hit Batgirl with it (I don't recall it being undodgeable, exactly...).

Although I'm starting to wonder how Julia's durability stacks up to the damage Batgirl can dish out. Is it possible Julia can just tank Batgirl's hits until she can land a blow?

Well, in terms of durability, Julia has a lot of feats, especially during the Grand Tournament of Jade arc. But to simplify the topic, Julia can take as much physical punishment as your typical Shonen Manga protagonist, and still swing a blow. And even if she gets hit, the "Restoring Breath" allows Julia to regenerate from wounds rapidly. And that's assuming Cassandra connects at all; Julia's fast, and she has 30+ years of combat experience fighting against all sorts of opponents, both humanoid and non-humanoid.

[lonewolf23k]

Well, like I said, I haven't read enough to see Julia's best moves, but I am encouraged by this. :)

Still, the main problem here, though is the speed. Can Julia pull off Batgirl's sniper round dodge? The Master Blow is mighty indeed, but won't do any good if she can't hit Batgirl with it (I don't recall it being undodgeable, exactly...).

Although I'm starting to wonder how Julia's durability stacks up to the damage Batgirl can dish out. Is it possible Julia can just tank Batgirl's hits until she can land a blow?

Well, in terms of durability, Julia has a lot of feats, especially during the Grand Tournament of Jade arc. But to simplify the topic, Julia can take as much physical punishment as your typical Shonen Manga protagonist, and still swing a blow. And even if she gets hit, the "Restoring Breath" allows Julia to regenerate from wounds rapidly. And that's assuming Cassandra connects at all; Julia's fast, and she has 30+ years of combat experience fighting against all sorts of opponents, both humanoid and non-humanoid.

[Omegalith]

Yeah... Undogeable only really applies to magical attacks that originate at the target's location... And even then Flash or Karate Kid might be able to get out of the way in time.

[Sharpandpointies]

And that's assuming Cassandra connects at all; Julia's fast, and she has 30+ years of combat experience fighting against all sorts of opponents, both humanoid and non-humanoid.

If Julia can hit, obviously she removes Cass from the planet.

But I'm still looking for speed feats. How fast is 'fast'?

[Kage Kisaragi]

Well, in terms of durability, Julia has a lot of feats, especially during the Grand Tournament of Jade arc. But to simplify the topic, Julia can take as much physical punishment as your typical Shonen Manga protagonist, and still swing a blow. And even if she gets hit, the "Restoring Breath" allows Julia to regenerate from wounds rapidly. And that's assuming Cassandra connects at all; Julia's fast, and she has 30+ years of combat experience fighting against all sorts of opponents, both humanoid and non-humanoid.

It's that one problem that is hard to prove here in the rumbles, is the quantifying speed feat, im drawing up nada though i suspect we're right that she can, but because of the level of threats julia faces we wont see anything that closely resembles said feat. It's not like A dragon is going to whip out a sub-machine gun and stand in front of her and start firing.

[Kusanagi]

To add to the durability debate I seem to recall Julia casually taking a punch from Cheetah to show why it was worth training with her. Granted it's been years since I've read, but Cheetah has legit super strength I can't see Batgirl dishing out that kind of punishment unless she's casually blitzing her.

[Guy1]

Ends in sex?

[Sharkerbob]

To add to the durability debate I seem to recall Julia casually taking a punch from Cheetah to show why it was worth training with her. Granted it's been years since I've read, but Cheetah has legit super strength I can't see Batgirl dishing out that kind of punishment unless she's casually blitzing her.

I actually just read that issue this morning. :P

Yeah, she takes pretty much a full on punch to the face from Cheetah (circa mid-series vol. 1), and treats like it was nothing. Cheetah's supposed to be around a Class 2, even early on. And just prior to punching Julia, Cheetah completely pulverized a heavy punching bag with one blow prior to that (as in, she punched it an it exploded, on top of shattering the chains holding the bag).

[Sharpandpointies]

Sounds like we can set the speed debate aside for 'Cass can't hurt Julia'. At the least, she wins on the basis of that.

[Guy Smiley]

What about pressure points? I figure the renewing breath could normally fix that sort of thing, but it does require the user to take a breath. Depending on what kind of pressure point abilities Cass has displayed, that might be a legit way around both durability and regen.

Also, I don't remember the Master Blow being undodgeable, although it's been a long time since I read the issue in question, so I could be wrong. What I do remember is that it's not the sort of thing Julia wants to casually throw around, since it wipes her out to use it.

Using high-end feats, I recall Cheets being pretty fast even back then. Most of her low-end speed/reaction feats are explainable by the fact that she was pretty much self-taught, and didn't have the trained reflexes and alertness a more serious warrior would develop. This is, of course, a situation Julia decided to rectify.

I wish I could actually remember the specifics of any of the really good feats, though. Best I can remember is her contest against a mimic. The mimic (in the form of a fanged chest, natch) declares that the Diggers can keep any of the gold bars they can snatch before it closes its mouth. When Cheetah accepts and makes a grab, it snaps shut in a fraction of a second. Already beginning to congratulate itself on snagging yet another treasure hunter's arm, the mimic realizes that it not only failed to remove Cheetah's arm, but that she managed to snag several (I forget the exact number, sadly) gold bars in that time. She proceeds to give it the gold back, claiming she was really more interested in the challenge itself, and asks for another go-around. The mimic agrees, figuring the first time was a fluke. This repeats, with Cheetah eventually getting something like half the gold bars from the chest until the Mimic (which has been attempting to snap shut harder and faster) snaps shut hard enough to shatter itself. IIRC, this is a flashback to Gina's and Brit's first adventure together, which means that chronologically it predates the entire series. (Not counting kid flashbacks, time travel, etc. of course.)