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  1. #16
    They LAUGHED at my theory SteveGus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rob_Olivera View Post
    I know the general concensus is that the Genocide look was horrible among many... but it never actually bothered me. Personally I thought it was a good story and was glad to see a power-wise worthwhile opponent for her.
    I suppose my chief issue with Genocide is that she's one of a sequence of Negative Counterpart Wonder Woman characters (Shim'tar .... Devastation) and with very minimal change I thought the story could have been told using one of those.
    Superhero comic books only become art to the extent that their banal, unrealistic fantasy and garish styles go too far and become interesting. Attempts to ground them in reality can only ruin them.

  2. #17

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    Quote Originally Posted by dshipp17 View Post
    The comic book collapse was not due to quality, as you seem to be implying, but for a very different and unrelated reason, somewhat connected to the stock market.
    Maybe this wil help Fanzing-How to save the comic book industry
    Last edited by PauloIapetus; 04-30-2012 at 01:10 PM.

  3. #18

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    Quote Originally Posted by I-Ching View Post
    I don't remember but the costume and the story told me there was something very much lacking in the execution of the idea. The whole 'Diana's corpse from the future" was such a "huh? wha?" moment it had little to no impact after such a build up. The concept is interesting but the reveal was lacking and it just didn't make for a great story overall. And the name. Yeesh. I loved so much of what Gail did but I think she needed the editor to step in here and help guide that story with a little more direction/to a more satisfying reveal and conclusion.
    Take a look in the that much elucidative reply...

    Originally Posted by Gail Simone
    Hi, guys.

    I do indeed like to bring characters back around, even in other books.

    But I did not write the Knockout death scene. I believe Tony Bedard did, and he was pretty unhappy about it at the time. It was really unpleasant.

    She WAS going to be Genocide, but after the first issue was already written, we got notes from editorial that we could NOT bring Knockout back because all the New Gods were dead because of Grant's reboot. I made the point that Knockout was not a New God, but a Female Fury and was shut down cold.

    That story had quite a bit of editorial WTF moments. There's a lot in that book I still really like, but we definitely had to deal with a lot of odd, odd stuff being inflicted for reasons I don't really get to this day.

  4. #19
    Junior Member tasslehoff's Avatar
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    It doesn't change the fact that Gennycide sucked. lol.
    Let's see she went from being

    1. a God (ww states she is fighting a god and purple ray wont work on her godly wounds)
    2. Ww's corpse )"my face is your face at the end of your life"(
    3. A homemade god
    4. Ares' lover
    5. A spirit placed in a whittle baby
    6. A channelled spirit that gives 4 amazons enough oomph to take Dianas hits but still get owned by Diana.

    2 of those would have been sufficient with proper writing and pacing.

  5. #20
    Whiz Kids Vs. Witchcraft! tangentman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Seant View Post
    The other head-scratcher is, who is Knockout? And what is her connection to Wonder Woman? If you're going to create a new villain, why use the remnants of a villain with no connection to the book at all?
    Gail Simone. As mentioned, Gail wrote both Secret Six and Wonder Woman at the time. Knockout had recently died in Birds of Prey, and it actually made more sense to use her body, rather than the bizarreness of Diana's future corpse. Writers sometimes connect their books with unlikely or unexpected appearances. For example, Mystique debuted in Ms. Marvel, but didn't show up in her blue-skinned goodness until approximately three years later in Uncanny X-Men. Chris Claremont wrote both titles and used the same character in both books. He also did this with Viper & Silver Samurai. They appeared in a multi-part arc in Marvel Team-Up written by Claremont, who brought them back for his run on Spider-Woman. It helps create a sense of "shared universe", and DC was wrong to veto Gail that way.
    Who needs CoTM when you can have a Skullie?

    I am Tangent Man! I do not care!

  6. #21
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    It would have been a much better story if Genocide had been Knockout. It would have been better still if she was Devastation. If she was Maxima it would have been epic!

  7. #22
    Senior Member Zagreus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MajorHoy View Post


    Looks like Thorn on steroids or something. (Maybe Miracle-Gro?)

    Because Genocide was originally designed to be Knockout, you know, green costume, red hair, returned from the grave, with her identity concealed. But then Gail was told she couldn't use Knockout, but the character was already designed already, and she came up with some not very well thought out story about her being Diana's own body from an alternative future, sent into the past... yeah, I don't get it either...

  8. #23
    Senior Member Seant's Avatar
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    Other serious problems with the story were: Cheetah screaming for mercy and surrendering when Wonder Woman threatens to sever her tail, despite WW already having done that during the Perez run, and Cheetah didn't flinch; Wonder Woman is unable to withstand Genocide's attack, and then suddenly she can beat her into a pulp, luckily right before the resolution, when Genocide disappears, leaving yet another dangling (and never resolved) storyline; the ultimate climax of the story is Wonder Woman driving an axe into Ares' head, which we all know wouldn't do anything to the immortal god of war; sure enough, he appears a few issues later with some stitches in his head.

    Easy resolutions make for disappointing stories. Never-ending stories, at that.

  9. #24
    a curious wanderer OBrianTallent's Avatar
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    Something that I thought had been intended to play into the character's origin was a scene or several scenes where different science themed characters were seen going around to sites of genocides and massive devastation picking up soil. I had always thought these would be used to make Genocide in a similar manner that Diana was made from clay and where Diana was mythological, Genocide would be man/technologically based.
    I always thought Genocide could have been much more than what she came out to be which is obviously due to much editorial muckering about. Also, as much as I love Aaron Lopresti's work, I'm not so sure that he was the best artist for this. An artist with a little more grit, a darker tone would have been interesting.
    Not all who wander are lost....

  10. #25
    Senior Member Zagreus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OBrianTallent View Post
    Something that I thought had been intended to play into the character's origin was a scene or several scenes where different science themed characters were seen going around to sites of genocides and massive devastation picking up soil. I had always thought these would be used to make Genocide in a similar manner that Diana was made from clay and where Diana was mythological, Genocide would be man/technologically based.
    I always thought Genocide could have been much more than what she came out to be which is obviously due to much editorial muckering about. Also, as much as I love Aaron Lopresti's work, I'm not so sure that he was the best artist for this. An artist with a little more grit, a darker tone would have been interesting.
    That's actually a FAR cooler idea than the one the author of the comic came up with...

  11. #26

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    Quote Originally Posted by Seant View Post
    Other serious problems with the story were: Cheetah screaming for mercy and surrendering when Wonder Woman threatens to sever her tail, despite WW already having done that during the Perez run, and Cheetah didn't flinch.
    I'm going totally off memory for this one, but I thought the tail-removal moment of the Perez story was the turning point in the fight - that after doing that, Diana decidedly finished it.
    The Silver Age is best recreated by not repeating it.
    John Seavey

  12. #27
    Senior Member Seant's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Franklin View Post
    I'm going totally off memory for this one, but I thought the tail-removal moment of the Perez story was the turning point in the fight - that after doing that, Diana decidedly finished it.
    Yes, you are right that "didn't flinch" is not the best description of the scene. it causes Cheetah significant pain, and it is her cries of pain that drives Diana into a bestial mode that eventually helps her defeat Cheetah.

    But I read the Gail scene as well, and was even more surprised at how pathetic the Cheetah seems. Diana uses her tiara to cut the side of Cheetah's face, and that's all it takes for the Cheetah to start begging.

    A hero is only as good as her villains, and when a villain like Cheetah-- vicious, bloodthirsty, somewhat insane-- breaks down at the threat of physical pain, then how formidable can she be? Would we see Joker do this? Luthor? Plus, there's the fact her tail will grow back!

    From what we see here, it's obvious the Cheetah is a pretty tame kitty, not a world class threat with a will of iron.

  13. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by Seant View Post
    Yes, you are right that "didn't flinch" is not the best description of the scene. it causes Cheetah significant pain, and it is her cries of pain that drives Diana into a bestial mode that eventually helps her defeat Cheetah.

    But I read the Gail scene as well, and was even more surprised at how pathetic the Cheetah seems. Diana uses her tiara to cut the side of Cheetah's face, and that's all it takes for the Cheetah to start begging.

    A hero is only as good as her villains, and when a villain like Cheetah-- vicious, bloodthirsty, somewhat insane-- breaks down at the threat of physical pain, then how formidable can she be? Would we see Joker do this? Luthor? Plus, there's the fact her tail will grow back!

    From what we see here, it's obvious the Cheetah is a pretty tame kitty, not a world class threat with a will of iron.
    Don't throw rocks at me, but I think the scariest version of Cheetah barring her postCrisis debut was the one from the Odyssey. That b*t@# was lethal! And that's what Cheetah should be. She could dice up a room full of Amazons before Diana could even blink. That's the key to making her a formidable opponent...her speed and her capacity to kill. Wonder Woman should appear to be standing still by comparison.

  14. #29
    What the?!? jack-be-nimble's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Maximum Impact View Post
    It would have been a much better story if Genocide had been Knockout. It would have been better still if she was Devastation. If she was Maxima it would have been epic!

    MaxImpact: Either Devastation or Maxima would have been a much better body double than Knockout (RIP) or alternate future Diana. With Devastation at least, it could've lead to a lot more story...like who (was able to) killed her.

  15. #30

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    Quote Originally Posted by Seant View Post
    Yes, you are right that "didn't flinch" is not the best description of the scene. it causes Cheetah significant pain, and it is her cries of pain that drives Diana into a bestial mode that eventually helps her defeat Cheetah.

    But I read the Gail scene as well, and was even more surprised at how pathetic the Cheetah seems. Diana uses her tiara to cut the side of Cheetah's face, and that's all it takes for the Cheetah to start begging.

    A hero is only as good as her villains, and when a villain like Cheetah-- vicious, bloodthirsty, somewhat insane-- breaks down at the threat of physical pain, then how formidable can she be? Would we see Joker do this? Luthor? Plus, there's the fact her tail will grow back!

    From what we see here, it's obvious the Cheetah is a pretty tame kitty, not a world class threat with a will of iron.
    Oh, I agree that Gail's depiction of the Cheetah wasn't the vicious, savage, god-possessed scary monster. iirc, the inclusion of the Cheetah in that storyline was...er, it seemed unnecessary. I vaguely had the impression that Gail was trying to establish Minerva as a mover and shaker in the society of super-villains, but that whole storyline seemed to long and unnecessarily convoluted to me. I say that having not read it in awhile, but I also have to admit that I haven't read it in awhile because I haven't been able to muster the motivation to re-read the Warkiller arc (or the Genocide arc, or what ever it's called). I remember really liking the "lasso in the ocean + tender Diana/Donna moment," but the specifics on the rest are fuzzy. TO Morrow creating Genocide from clumps of Earth all over the planet and Psycho and Cheetah mixed up in it all somehow. Hm. Maybe I should reread it before I cast aspersion.

    I was more focused on the Perez bit, because the first time I read that story and saw (even through the ghastly pencils of Chris Marrinan) Diana rip out Cheetah's tail, I was shocked. And I could imagine that pain. And I remember the written howl. I wasn't defending Cheetah in the hands of Gail in that arc.

    And honestly, when I consider how visceral, twisted, and crafty Suicide Squad was, I think I would love to see Gail apply that sensibility to Cheetah. Nasty, vicious, and strange.
    The Silver Age is best recreated by not repeating it.
    John Seavey

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