Why Hope is Bishop's only hope for redemption

[remydat]

No, not necessarily. Bishop comes from a timeline in which Hope supposedly caused a tragedy. That event might have been necessary for him to be born at all. If his parents never met in the camps, he wouldn't exist in the 616 future timeline. The Bishop you are familiar with exists only on the contingency that events unfold as they did in his original time frame. Any deviations from the event causing his timeline would result in a completely different character, if any at all.

Yes it is entirely possible that without Hope his parents never met. Although I was thinking of things in terms of the infinite possibilities that exist from a many worlds theory where every decision you make creates a new parrallel universe ie if there are an infinite number of parallel universes then there is a universe in which his parents still meet whether that be outside the camps or whether some other mutant disaster creates the camps. When you are dealing with the concept of infinity the possibilities are well infinite.

[remydat]

They met in Australia, and his mother was already heavily pregnated before the island was nuked to hell and back, I think. And at any rate, you are right, but if they want to ever bring back any Bishop, they will have to do just that. I mean, how do you even justify the billions of deaths at his hands?.

Yeah, unless they want to turn him into a villain or at odds with the X-men, they effectively need a Bishop with the same history except in his reality it was some other mutant event that created the mutant camps so he is not a maniac. Or course if that were the case, he would have to do some serious convincing for anyone to believe it was not the same Bishop.

[cbhellion]

There are multiple versions of each character across alt universes (with a few exceptions), despite dramatic shifts in the history of each universe.

Each character can exist in multiple realities, however, it does not mean that they must exist in all realities. For example, Rogue and Mangeto were parents os Charles Lensheer in AOA. However, he has yet to exist in any other reality or timeline except for that one. This is, of course, a rare exception due to the fact that AOA was a parodox reality which originally overwrote 616, and wasn't a true alternate universe until Bishop restored the timeline. However, the same basic concept applies.

[cbhellion]

Yes it is entirely possible that without Hope his parents never met. Although I was thinking of things in terms of the infinite possibilities that exist from a many worlds theory where every decision you make creates a new parrallel universe ie if there are an infinite number of parallel universes then there is a universe in which his parents still meet whether that be outside the camps or whether some other mutant disaster creates the camps. When you are dealing with the concept of infinity the possibilities are well infinite.

Infinite only so long as it doesn't create a paradox. ;)

[remydat]

Each character can exist in multiple realities, however, it does not mean that they must exist in all realities. For example, Rogue and Mangeto were parents os Charles Lensheer in AOA. However, he has yet to exist in any other reality or timeline except for that one. This is, of course, a rare exception due to the fact that AOA was a parodox reality which originally overwrote 616, and wasn't a true alternate universe until Bishop restored the timeline. However, the same basic concept applies.

But from a pure theoretical perspective and recognizing the MU has a bit of a dodgy concept of alternate realities, Charles Lensheer has to have existed in mutliple realities at one point or another. From the moment he was born, any decisions made in the AoA universe by any other human in the AoA universe would create an alternate reality.

[Meehl]

Each character can exist in multiple realities, however, it does not mean that they must exist in all realities. For example, Rogue and Mangeto were parents os Charles Lensheer in AOA. However, he has yet to exist in any other reality or timeline except for that one. This is, of course, a rare exception due to the fact that AOA was a parodox reality which originally overwrote 616, and wasn't a true alternate universe until Bishop restored the timeline. However, the same basic concept applies.

What are you talking about? Charles Lensheer doesn't exist in 616. That's all we know because the vast majority of comics focus on 616. The absence of references to Charles has no bearing on all the other alt universes in which he exists. And not just variants of AOA.

[remydat]

Infinite only so long as it doesn't create a paradox. ;)

Yeah but if you believe in the many worlds theory then you don't have a paradox. For example, if we look at the grandfather paradox ie the idea you could not go back and time and kill your grandfather because doing so means you were never born and hence you could not have gone back in time to kill your grandfather. That paradox is solved with the many worlds interpretation because all that happens is that the 616 version of you goes back to 616 past and kills his grandfather but that act creates a new parallel universe 617. It still means that in 616, you never killed your grandfather.

The other alternative is that when you first went back in time you went back to an alternate universe from the begining and hence any things you altered were alterations to what was already an alternate universe.

You only have paradoxes if you assume there is only one universe because if you accept there are an infinite number of parallel universes then you eliminate just about any paradox you can think of. That is how the idea of parralell universes first came about because it was trying to explain something that appeared impossible if you accepted only one universe. It was the debate over the Copenhagen Interpretation ie the idea that observing subatomic particles could change their actual state versus the many worlds interpretation in relation to why electrons had properties of both a wave and a particle but that is probably too dense a discussion for a comics board.

[Leirus]

What are you talking about? Charles Lensheer doesn't exist in 616. That's all we know because the vast majority of comics focus on 616. The absence of references to Charles has no bearing on all the other alt universes in which he exists. And not just variants of AOA.

No, AoA was 616. At first it was not an alternate reality. Legion changed the past without creating a new timeline, that is why the M'Kraan was going nuts during AoA. I hope Charles never gets to exist in our 616, Fionnula would have an aneurism.

[Meehl]

No, AoA was 616. At first it was not an alternate reality. Legion changed the past without creating a new timeline, that is why the M'Kraan was going nuts during AoA. I hope Charles never gets to exist in our 616, Fionnula would have an aneurism.

Minor point, and largely irrelevant. AOA is now known to represent Earth-295.

[remydat]

No, AoA was 616. At first it was not an alternate reality. Legion changed the past without creating a new timeline, that is why the M'Kraan was going nuts during AoA. I hope Charles never gets to exist in our 616, Fionnula would have an aneurism.

Again this a matter of perspective. If you think that AoA was 616 then when Legion changed 616 into AoA, he simultaneously created a new timeline where he did not kill Xaiver and that timeline would have proceeded as 616 does.

If you think AoA was a new timeline then 616 never changed and when 616 Legion went back in time, he went back in time to what was already an altenate timely ie 295 because going back in time to your actual timeline is not possible.

Again from a pure theoritical quantum mechanics standpoint, you cannot simply destroy a timeline. All you can do is create a new timeline and which timeline you actually experiene is dependent on your perspective as the observer. Marvel just gets dodgy with how they protray it.

[mikekerrIII]

How can Hope mimic the PF without having somekind of contact with it first?

She possesses a PF fragment she's not mimicing it. How can one even mimic such power to begin with? We're talking about the PF here.

She doesn't need to touch and the PF is very powerful, plus there might be someone with a fragment nearby

[Meehl]

Again this a matter of perspective. If you think that AoA was 616 then when Legion changed 616 into AoA, he simultaneously created a new timeline where he did not kill Xaiver and that timeline would have proceeded as 616 does.

If you think AoA was a new timeline then 616 never changed and when 616 Legion went back in time, he went back in time to what was already an altenate timely ie 295 because going back in time to your actual timeline is not possible.

Again from a pure theoritical quantum mechanics standpoint, you cannot simply destroy a timeline. All you can do is create a new timeline and which timeline you actually experiene is dependent on your perspective as the observer. Marvel just gets dodgy with how they protray it.

Unfortunately, your limited to capacity to reason doesn't determine the physics of whether timelines can be altered or destroyed. Marvel writers have taken it upon themselves to explain to us that timelines can in fact be destroyed.

[cbhellion]

Unfortunately, your limited to capacity to reason doesn't determine the physics of whether timelines can be altered or destroyed. Marvel writers have taken it upon themselves to explain to us that timelines can in fact be destroyed.

Which makes the entire discussion a moot point, since we're trying to apply real world theories on a universe with fictional rules.

[remydat]

Unfortunately, your limited to capacity to reason doesn't determine the physics of whether timelines can be altered or destroyed. Marvel writers have taken it upon themselves to explain to us that timelines can in fact be destroyed.

If you are going to continue with your hurt feelings over my views on Cyke, at least read the context of my posts rather than just embarrass yourself. I could care less about Marvel writers shoddy understanding of how alternate realities work. If I intended to discuss Marvel's dodgy ideas, I would have stated it in my post. Instead I set the context which is my right to do by saying, "Again from a pure THEORETICAL QUANTUM MECHANICS standpoint."

So yes genius, I don't determine the physics of whether timelines can be altered or destoryed. Neither does Marvel. Quantum Mechanics does which is what I was discussing.

[remydat]

Which makes the entire discussion a moot point, since we're trying to apply real world theories on a universe with fictional rules.

It's only a moot discussion if the point was to accept Marvel's views on alternate realities. However, since the very first post in this thread referenced the many worlds theory which is not a marvel concept but a concept from quantum mechanics, the discussion was never about Marvel's dodgy views on alternate realities no matter how much Meehl wants it to be. I suggest he start his own thread if he wants the discussion to only be focused on Marvel's dodgy views but my thread was always intended to discuss alternate realities in the context of real world quantum mechanics.