Why Hope is Bishop's only hope for redemption

[Sighphi]

He should have not murdered 9 billion people at all, especially on a gamble that he would succeed. even with his twisted version of time travel the gamble was a lunatics bet.

Can we stop acting here like we know more about time travel than the characters written by the people that are making these rules up?

If he failed, as he did, those 9 billion died for nothing at all.

What do you mean nothing? He gave rise to the roach people.
He is a GOD.

No, he shouldn't have done it because killing Hope in 616 or the alt timelines they jumped into wouldn't erase her or any timelines. Bishop already knew that 616 was not his timeline, so killing Hope was irrelevant to saving his own.

Bishop doesnt know he isnt from 616. Where are you getting this from?

[ZNOP]

Bishop doesnt know he isnt from 616. Where are you getting this from?

I'm pretty sure he learned that Fitzroy's portal took him back in time after Peter punched him in the face during Uncanny X-Men #283

[remydat]

I posted that pic as a way of saying that Pre/Post Magneto was brought to trial for his crimes... The fact that his attorney's got him off doesn't mean that justice wasn't served -- it only means that the defense didn't make their case.

I concur.

Whether justice was served is a whole separate debate, again the point I was making was that it was not much of a redemption story.

[remydat]

What you do to achieve a goal matters as much as the goal itself, you can do evil in a good cause. And as far as the Sub is concerned why would he need or seek redemption for defending himself?
Was there something wrong about dropping that building? Mags been fighting people like that for 60+ years, he just decided to change his methods to those more appropriate.

You have things backwards. I originally commented to a poster that I did not think Marvel could do a redemption story with Bishop because they haven't really done one with Mags. ZNOP then posted Uncanny 200. I simply pointed out that is not a redemption story because Mags was not really seeking redemption in that story as much as he was justifying his actions. Every thing you have said essentially supports my point because you are also justifying his actions. If you want to debate whether his actions were justified that is a completely separate debate but again the point here is that Uncanny 200 is not an example of a redemption story which is why I was confused why ZNOP posted it when I was specifically talking about Mags seeking redemption.

Now as to the separate debate regarding his actions. Mags attacked sovereign soviet soil first. The Soviets retaliated. His attack was effectively a terrorist attack plain and simply. When does a terrorist get to launch an attack on sovereign soil and then when a country tries to take out the terrorist and he kills its soldiers suddenly get to claim self defense? If Russia attacked Mags unprovoked you would have a point. If you are going to claim that Mags actions in attack sovereign soil was justified then you are essentially arguing that anyone who disapproves of a nations foreign or domestic policy can freely attack that nation.

As for the building, it is murder plain and simple. Those people posed no threat to Mags and instead of being the bigger man and simply walking away, he resorted to the same old Mags whose ego could not take the insults and so he just dropped a building on them. Which look, I prefer that Mags to the Mags that's kissing Cyke's ass right now but not sure how you can claim he is such a changed man. The only thing that is changed is he has the common sense to murder someone privately now instead of announcing it to the whole world.

[remydat]

So..... he should have been more conservative in his plan to change the timeline?

Do I even have to answer this? Yes, he should have more conservative. It's 9 billion lives for christ sake. Who the fuck thinks its a good idea to take that kind of risk when there is no guarantee of success? He crossed the line say 8,999,000,000 people ago.

[Sighphi]

Do I even have to answer this? Yes, he should have more conservative. It's 9 billion lives for christ sake. Who the fuck thinks its a good idea to take that kind of risk when there is no guarantee of success? He crossed the line say 8,999,000,000 people ago.

You must really hate history class, then.
Cause, you know, the history of man consists of pretty much some one wiping out some one else.

[remydat]

You must really hate history class, then.
Cause, you know, the history of man consists of pretty much some one wiping out some one else.

This logic is flawed. So because man wipes each other out, I should not consider it morally wrong? By this logic I should not consider the Holocaust morally wrong because well as you said the history of man consists of pretty much some one wiping out some one else. SMH.

Incidentally, I was a history minor in University and at no point did any professor or student ever try to argue that type of logic.

[mikekerrIII]

Can we stop acting here like we know more about time travel than the characters written by the people that are making these rules up?

W=e know by countless stories of time travel and alternate universes how time travel works in the MU. That knowledge is not changers by the rantings of one genocidal psychopath. psychopaths are not a reliable source of information

What do you mean nothing? He gave rise to the roach people.
He is a GOD.

Who died

Bishop doesn't know he isnt from 616. Where are you getting this from?

It appears that he has been reading the books for a while.

[mikekerrIII]

You must really hate history class, then.
Cause, you know, the history of man consists of pretty much some one wiping out some one else.

The folks who do so are normally considered evil or wrong for doing so.

Just becasue it has happened before it is not any less evil an act.

[Sighphi]

W=e know by countless stories of time travel and alternate universes how time travel works in the MU. That knowledge is not changers by the rantings of one genocidal psychopath. psychopaths are not a reliable source of information

What book disagrees with what Bishop is written to think?

Who died

For all this crying about people he killed every time there was a jump forward in time there was some one there.

It appears that he has been reading the books for a while.

What?

The folks who do so are normally considered evil or wrong for doing so.

Just becasue it has happened before it is not any less evil an act.

Yeah, pretty sure US history lessons dont consist of them saying how evil the people were for wiping out the natives.

[mikekerrIII]

What book disagrees with what Bishop is written to think?

the issue that was his origine for once and every time travel book with the X-men and the FF.

What?

either get a ladder or think about it, then it won't be over your head

Yeah, pretty sure US history lessons don't consist of them saying how evil the people were for wiping out the natives.

I'm now pretty sure you slept though those courses, at least the ones after elementary school.

[Sighphi]

the issue that was his origine for once and every time travel book with the X-men and the FF.

Incorrect. You are putting your own meaning in those books instead of what is stated in them.
By the way, I dont know if i mentioned this here, but when is Cable going to explain how Hope is supposed to be any good for 616? Cause he never did, correct?

I'm now pretty sure you slept though those courses, at least the ones after elementary school.

Unless you went to some Native American school, which im pretty sure still won refer to the white eye as evil, im pretty sure the history of the country goes on to mention how evil those people were. The only time anything close to that comes about is during the Civil War and in the South they view the whole subject completely differently.

[Ebon Phantom]

No, it makes half of the argument moot as some people CONTINUE to insist putting real world science into a comic book what OBVIOUSLY functions differently.

Bishop is fine, there is nothing wrong with the character. Marvel writers just declared he is a villain and some reader are buying that because that's the line you are being told. But there is so far absolutely no evidence (unless i missed it) why Hope should be alive. So far the story has been X-men want to be happy now with this mutant kid and screwing over the mutants of the future. Which really is the mentality of a kid, instant satisfaction.

An interesting story with this Hope crap would have been a break where some mutants want her dead to protect the future while others are trying to protect here. X-men Civil war. That would have made AvX more interesting.

Wait, how does that work? Without Hope, there presumably aren't gonna be any mutants within the future. Her entire existences is about restarting the mutant race so that those in the future can even exist, so she can't exactly be screwing them over win they wouldn't be there without her.

[Sighphi]

Wait, how does that work? Without Hope, there presumably aren't gonna be any mutants within the future. Her entire existences is about restarting the mutant race so that those in the future can even exist, so she can't exactly be screwing them over win they wouldn't be there without her.

How do we know her entire existence is about restarting the mutant race?

[mikekerrIII]

Incorrect. You are putting your own meaning in those books instead of what is stated in them.
By the way, I dont know if i mentioned this here, but when is Cable going to explain how Hope is supposed to be any good for 616? Cause he never did, correct?

I am putting the meaning that the writer put in them , often with a lot of exposition.

Unless you went to some Native American school, which im pretty sure still won refer to the white eye as evil, im pretty sure the history of the country goes on to mention how evil those people were. The only time anything close to that comes about is during the Civil War and in the South they view the whole subject completely differently.

I went to a decent America public school and did so very long before the term PC was created. I learded that thoings like the trail of tears were eveil acts. I checked with my son's and they learned in middle school history school that genocide is evil thing. If you try that idiocy in even a 100 level college class you will be laughed out of the place, if pity doesn't overwhelm your classmates. Maybe when you get into High Sschool you will learn how most history books consider the Western expansion and the treatment of the Indians