Should TKJ and upcoming Batgirl: TDR TPB be considered Pts. 1-2 of the same story?

[shark]

Which is why I said "TKJ and it's aftermath." Thinking about it, obviously Joker causes a lot of harm, but what direct harm has he caused Bruce? (note: I'm not saying direct harm is the only harm.)

But why do we consider "direct aftermath"? Her Oracle years? Her new Batgirl solo? Everything else? If I'm not mistaken Babs appeared in Jason's funeral - in a wheelchair.

Oh, he knows, but he also knows Catwoman gets a little possessive and doesn't like to share her toys. ;)

Come on, Bruce is totally tsundere for the Joker.

[americanwonder]

But why do we consider "direct aftermath"? Her Oracle years? Her new Batgirl solo? Everything else? If I'm not mistaken Babs appeared in Jason's funeral - in a wheelchair.

Personally, I consider both Oracle and Batgirl, as both work well, individually or together.

And why keep bringing up Jason anyway? He has nothing to do with TKJ. If we are going big picture: Bruce is far better than Jason. So, how is Jason relevent? "Yay, he came back from death and went on to kill people" - a very shining example, I must say. ;)

Come on, Bruce is totally tsundere for the Joker.

Tsundere? Not sure I dare google that one.

[Dr. Hurt]

his primary victim Barbara

You mean James Gordon right?

who overcomes what happened to her and going right back out there as Batgirl to help others, thus completely invalidating what the Joker was trying to prove in TKJ, far better than Batman did,

See, when you miss the whole point of TKJ, how are you supposed to make suggestions about it?

Gordon proved that his moral code wont break, not Batman. He was the one that Joker was trying to push over the edge.

I see The Killing Joke as an incomplete chapter that now requires the reading of Batgirl #1-6

You would, wouldnt you?

Batgirl philisophically has proven herself to be the antithesis of what the Joker stands for, far more than the standard hero/archenemy dynamic between Bruce and the mad comedian.

[

[Dr. Hurt]

See that artwork and the whole oracle history just says to me, "I couldn't cut it as Batgirl and will make the best of a bad situation." Whereas with the upcoming TPB of issues #1-6 of Batgirl we have a triumphant Barbara who retakes the mantle that she sees as HER'S, she KNOWS she's no distaff version of Batman, and works on overcoming PTSD to become an active hero again for the masses of Gotham. I prefer the new version of the aftermath of the TKJ as an inspiration of overcoming nearly unsurmountable obstacles, as opposed to just making do and doing the best from a bad ending, IMO.

I'm not saying the other version isn't inspirational for some, just not as inpirational as fully overcoming a previous obstacle in life, again IMO, not saying that my opinion is any definitive truth by any means.

So what you're saying is that making do and finding joy and meaning in her life, even while disabled doesnt count.

But getting her legs back and living her life does. BUT OF COURSE IT WOULD. SHE CAN WALK NOW. WHO WOULDNT BE HAPPY (Simone's Barbara amirite )? So how is this an achievement?

You're still suggesting that it's somehow more inspirational to be cured of a disability than it is to accept it and not let it stop you from doing anything you want to do and more. I honestly think you're on your own with that one.

Exactly.

[americanwonder]

You mean James Gordon right?

No, Barbara. I'm quite certain Joker shot Barbara, not James. James may be the Joker's primary focus to try and prove his point (which, he seems to be trying to prove to Batman, so it can be argued that Batman is actually the focus). Nevertheless, Barbara is the one who gets shot. Joker is trying to use Jim's feelings for Babs and the images of Babs' pain against Jim. But Babs' pain is not direct pain for Jim; it's secondary. It's direct, and thus primary, for Babs.

Think of it this way: We don't arrest someone for a crime against me because they hurt my loved one. We arrest them for the crime against the person hurt. Right?

In short, James is not the primary victim (unless we're just talking his kidnapping, and not referencing the shooting).

... So how is this an achievement?

Don't make me put the hurt on you, Dr. Hurt!

Since when is moving forward with one's life not an achievement?

And how on Earth is surgery and a year of therapy a "cure"?

[WhitOro]

I guess saying "No" like all the others is kind of rendundant, uh?
Well, here's my opinion, The Killing Joke has what I think, the best ending of history, or at least the best ending of a comicbook. The best. The story itself might not be stellar, and Barbara treatment can be considered tasteless, but the final pages are worth everything of it.

The Killing Joke doesn't need companion pieces, sequels or anything else, it already has an ending, and it's incredible. The story is not about Barbara (that's the entire point of why people are pissed about the fridging), it's about Batman and the Joker shared insanity.
So no thanks, the Simone's Batgirl TPB that goes from mediocre to obscene can't and won't be considered part 2.

[americanwonder]

If I may, WhitOro, what is it about the ending that you enjoy?

Cool avatar, too. :)

[WhitOro]

If I may, WhitOro, what is it about the ending that you enjoy?

We all know what's the point of The Killing Joke: the Joker wants to prove that a bad day it's that is needed to turn a man into a monster. But at the climax, Batman trashes Joker plans and beats the hell out of him, proclaming that maybe you're just weak, that the bad day alone isn't enough to make a monster out of you, you need to be from the beginning, a person that quits. Gordn hasn't fallen, the Joker has failed. It's a victory for the forces of good, yay, we're all happy...

But then, in this chilling scene, the rain coming down, the hero and the villain stop fighting and just talk. And the psychopath almost starts to cry, and the hero just listen to him... and then he tells the joke. And they laugh together. All the previous argument comes null... yeah, maybe Gordon isn't lost, but Batman is.
Batman and Joker are one and the same, a bad day turned them into monsters, only different kinds of monsters, but they're both insane. Batman laughs, even thought a friend got crippled and another got tortured. There's no victory in this comic, Batman is defeated, because he realizes that he and the Joker are closer than ever. It's a moment of bonding, they're not just enemies anymore, just the bad guy and the good guy, but almost friends.
It's hard to explain, really, It's a gut sensation, what you feel in the inside. There's something beautiful about this, truly one of the best Batman-Joker moments ever put on paper.

Cool avatar, too. :)

Thanks!

[Dr. Hurt]

Don't make me put the hurt on you, Dr. Hurt!

Since when is moving forward with one's life not an achievement?

And how on Earth is surgery and a year of therapy a "cure"?

Come on, he's saying that it's an achievement that Barbara is moving on with her life now. Well of course she is, of course she's happy, she's cured. It's pretty disrespectful to disabled people and Oracle to suggest that she didnt do the same thing while being Oracle.

She overcame her paralysis and her PTSD and became a hero worthy a membership in the JL. That was the achievement, that was the point where she moved on. Not now. If anything, Simone's Batgirl is a regression because Babs is dealing with her PTSD all over again. If this happened without the reboot, Oracle Babs would be all like "oh i can walk now? Cool, i'm gonna kick your ass even harder." Because she was over that.

[americanwonder]

Thanks for the reply, WhitOro. It was an enjoyable read. While I respect your opinion, I do not share it. To me, there's a big difference in punching criminals and shooting someone for answering the door. I wouldn't have laughed at his poor joke, I'd busted his teeth out like Babs did later in BoP.

[americanwonder]

Come on, he's saying that it's an achievement that Barbara is moving on with her life now. Well of course she is, of course she's happy, she's cured. It's pretty disrespectful to disabled people and Oracle to suggest that she didnt do the same thing while being Oracle.

In or out of a wheelchair isn't what makes one heroic. I agree with you that Babs did move on with her life as Oracle, and I find the way she did that very heroic. Where I disagree with you is when you seem to imply (or I infer from reading your posts) that Babs-Batgirl isn't trying to move on with her life in much the same way, and thus, isn't an "achievement."

And no, she isn't "cured." A year of therapy is not a cure; it's rehab. And very difficult rehab. Ask any physical therapist. Can't what you've said be seen as disrespectful to those that have worked hard to walk again?

She overcame her paralysis and her PTSD and became a hero worthy a membership in the JL. That was the achievement, that was the point where she moved on. Not now. If anything, Simone's Batgirl is a regression because Babs is dealing with her PTSD all over again. If this happened without the reboot, Oracle Babs would be all like "oh i can walk now? Cool, i'm gonna kick your ass even harder." Because she was over that.

Simone's Batgirl is a different story. There isn't a need for 'in or out of the chair - which is more heroic' war. The chair isn't what ever made her heroic. In or out.

[Dr. Hurt]

In or out of a wheelchair isn't what makes one heroic. I agree with you that Babs did move on with her life as Oracle, and I find the way she did that very heroic. Where I disagree with you is when you seem to imply (or I infer from reading your posts) that Babs-Batgirl isn't trying to move on with her life in much the same way, and thus, isn't an "achievement."

But she has already moved on as Oracle. The current book is merely ignoring that and backtracking her character development.

And no, she isn't "cured." A year of therapy is not a cure; it's rehab.

I meant that she can walk again. It's like saying that Batman can prove the Joker wrong only when Jason comes back to life. And that's where i disagree. Batman should be able to prove him wrong even before that, even while he's suffering from the loss of Robin. Similarly, Barbara can move on and make a statement without her legs. That's where it counts the most. Otherwise what's the point of countering the joker when you've countered his effect on you?

"Oh my cancer doesnt phase me. I'm cured 10 years now." You are heroic WHILE dealing with cancer. "Oh my cancer doesnt phaze me, even if i get chemo every month and might die in a couple of years."

There's a difference.

Simone's Batgirl is a different story.

You mean "inferior"? I'm kidding, i'm kidding.

[batGRRRl4ever]

But she has already moved on as Oracle. The current book is merely ignoring that and backtracking her character development.

Had, not has. We've now seen with Black Canary & Huntress' histories that much if not all previous BOP history is nixed, and also it seeming more than likely that the history and identity of Barbara as Oracle is purged from the existing timeline. The Batgirl title is "ignoring" nothing in terms of Pre-Flashpoint oracle history, because it simply did not happen. Barbara is dealing with it NOW in the CURRENT timeline, over 5-7 yrs younger and having only been in a wheelchair fulltime for 2 yrs.

And no, she isn't "cured." A year of therapy is not a cure; it's rehab. And very difficult rehab. Ask any physical therapist. Can't what you've said be seen as disrespectful to those that have worked hard to walk again?

I noticed you didn't really answer americanwonder's question. I really have to remember this one from now on in the future to counter when a poster wants to put out the old ableist accusation to Babs-Batgirl fans who are happy she has recovered and is moving on.

[Theozilla]

Had, not has. We've now seen with Black Canary & Huntress' histories that much if not all previous BOP history is nixed, and also it seeming more than likely that the history and identity of Barbara as Oracle is purged from the existing timeline. The Batgirl title is "ignoring" nothing in terms of Pre-Flashpoint oracle history, because it simply did not happen. Barbara is dealing with it NOW in the CURRENT timeline, over 5-7 yrs younger and having only been in a wheelchair fulltime for 2 yrs.

I noticed you didn't really answer americanwonder's question. I really have to remember this one from now on in the future to counter when a poster wants to put out the old ableist accusation to Babs-Batgirl fans who are happy she has recovered and is moving on.

I am not sure if this is your intention but due to your wording of your posts you sometimes make it sound like Babs being able to walk again is inherently a more inspiring story than Babs not regaining her legs but living with her disability and creating a new identity. Both are equally inspiring stories IMO (as to which one was better written is another thing), but it really does come off at times that you're saying the latter is less inspiring.

[americanwonder]

But she has already moved on as Oracle. The current book is merely ignoring that and backtracking her character development...

Can't the same basic thing be said of Action Comics and WW? Superman = backtracked. WW = Backtracked. These are not the same pre-Flashpoint characters. It's a divergent timeline. New stories. I still love my Oracle stories in BoP, and I'm sure I'll read them again. I also love Babs-Batgirl.

There's more than one way to deal with being shot and paralyzed (temporaily or not), and there's more than one type of story to tell.

... I meant that she can walk again. It's like saying that Batman can prove the Joker wrong only when Jason comes back to life. And that's where i disagree. Batman should be able to prove him wrong even before that, even while he's suffering from the loss of Robin. Similarly, Barbara can move on and make a statement without her legs. That's where it counts the most. Otherwise what's the point of countering the joker when you've countered his effect on you?

"Oh my cancer doesnt phase me. I'm cured 10 years now." You are heroic WHILE dealing with cancer. "Oh my cancer doesnt phaze me, even if i get chemo every month and might die in a couple of years."

There's a difference.

The only difference in your example is the timeline. Babs is still dealing with being shot and the effects it had. It's not the same story told in the old BoP. She's dealing with it in a different way, but is it not heroic in it's own way?

And Batman actually proved Joker wrong before the Joker ever existed.

You mean "inferior"? I'm kidding, i'm kidding.

Your tears bring me joy.