Should TKJ and upcoming Batgirl: TDR TPB be considered Pts. 1-2 of the same story?

[americanwonder]

I am not sure if this is your intention but due to your wording of your posts you sometimes make it sound like Babs being able to walk again is inherently a more inspiring story than Babs not regaining her legs but living with her disability and creating a new identity. Both are equally inspiring stories IMO (as to which one was better written is another thing), but it really does come off at times that you're saying the latter is less inspiring.

I like this post, Theozilla. Well said. I could be wrong, obviously, but I don't think batGRRRl4ever is trying to say that Babs not regaining the use of her legsis less inspiring. I think he(?) is just trying to say it's a story that he, personally, doesn't enjoy as much, a story that doesn't speak to him as well as the story of Babs regaining the use of her legs and taking up 'Batgirl' again. Though it's all always worded the best.

[Dr. Hurt]

I dont think it's the quality or plot that interests him, but merely which story has Batgirl in it. If it's X vs Y, and X has Batgirl, then X wins. The end.

[Guglio08]

That both Bruce and (?) had "one bad day" early in their lives and to handle it Batman became an obsessive-compulsive for order and Joker became a psychotic for chaos? I see it far more potent that Barbara is a DIRECT victim of the man who believes in a nihilistic philosophy and she painstakingly over the course of three years proved his philosophy wrong, first by simply living her life and making order out of her "one bad day" but then going the extra mile and donning her cowl again as Batgirl, now having an additional reason to protect Gotham as both survivor and avenger. More powerful to me at any rate.

The only way that would be a true catharsis is if The Joker had been been gunning for her from the start. But no, he was trying to get to James Gordon, so Barbara was just collateral damage. Barbara is not a foil for The Joker and she never will be. Also, the "one bad day" metaphor is one facet of the Batman / Joker relationship, not the entirety of it.

This topic is completely asinine. Here, I'll save you the trouble for your next post: Let's take [Batman related story] and compare its themes to [Batgirl related story] on the grounds of [completely unrelated thematic link]. The reason she donned the cowl again is editorial mandate and nothing more. It has nothing to do with sticking it to The Joker. She did that a long time ago as Oracle.

[batGRRRl4ever]

I like this post, Theozilla. Well said. I could be wrong, obviously, but I don't think batGRRRl4ever is trying to say that Babs not regaining the use of her legsis less inspiring. I think he(?) is just trying to say it's a story that he, personally, doesn't enjoy as much, a story that doesn't speak to him as well as the story of Babs regaining the use of her legs and taking up 'Batgirl' again. Though it's all always worded the best.

Yes, my opinion is that I prefer Barbara as Batgirl and am enjoying the new version of the aftermath of her dealing with her previous injury (although I DO want her to simply get past it at some point). Thematically there is nothing wrong with the stories of the Oracle years, I simply saw them through a prism of misogyny and sexism that Babs could never be healed due to editorial mandate for over two decades yet Batman was right as rain after getting his back broken by Bane within a few issues.

Going back to my first point I read comics to read about SUPER heroes, you know they wear outrageous spandex outfits and jump over rooftops and have wonderfully cliched catch phrases that they use against villians that make you want to groan but in a good way, etc. Whereas the character of Oracle was a hero, but she was grounded too much in reality for my tastes as a comic book reader of again, spandex wearing SUPER heroes.

I simply get miffed when posters state that "NO" anything and everything about Oracle is SUPERIOR in comparison to Batgirl, denigrating Babs as Batgirl as if her working through the pain of physical rehab for over a year was some sort of outrageous cop-out. It is all a matter of preference, neither story is superior to the other, it's just a matter of tastes. And Batgirl fans need to see past the VERY REAL misogyny that predated the creation of Oracle and see what was made of the character afterward, just the same as in the now Oracle fans need to stop denigrating Babs as Batgirl because in the Nu52 reality she chose to put back on her cowl after a year of painful recovery and ongoing mental recovery.

[ffritts]

Yes, my opinion is that I prefer Barbara as Batgirl and am enjoying the new version of the aftermath of her dealing with her previous injury (although I DO want her to simply get past it at some point). Thematically there is nothing wrong with the stories of the Oracle years, I simply saw them through a prism of misogyny and sexism that Babs could never be healed due to editorial mandate for over two decades yet Batman was right as rain after getting his back broken by Bane within a few issues.

You know its sexist and misogyny to say say lets have Barbara back in the cowl. How is it sexist? Who says Batgirl has to be a girl? Why not a tranny or a flamboyant gay guy? How is it misgynist? well its taken a character that was much more than a woman in a refridgerator and put he back in the ice box. They deaged her character to the point she is your typical 1 note hero. BTW it was EDITORIAL MANDATE to put her back in the cowl.

Going back to my first point I read comics to read about SUPER heroes, you know they wear outrageous spandex outfits and jump over rooftops and have wonderfully cliched catch phrases that they use against villians that make you want to groan but in a good way, etc. Whereas the character of Oracle was a hero, but she was grounded too much in reality for my tastes as a comic book reader of again, spandex wearing SUPER heroes.

So what makes a SUPERhero super is the outfit and jumping over rooftops? You sure you dont secretly want MISFIT to wear cape and cowl? I mean the only difference between getting a book like we have and having a book where Misfit as Batgirl would star is the powers. Everything else is there red hair, Batgirl, jumping over rooftops, be honest no other Barbara book has this type of Barbara. So I am glad you got your Batgirl back, I just await for the real Barbara to show up.

I simply get miffed when posters state that "NO" anything and everything about Oracle is SUPERIOR in comparison to Batgirl, denigrating Babs as Batgirl as if her working through the pain of physical rehab for over a year was some sort of outrageous cop-out. It is all a matter of preference, neither story is superior to the other, it's just a matter of tastes. And Batgirl fans need to see past the VERY REAL misogyny that predated the creation of Oracle and see what was made of the character afterward, just the same as in the now Oracle fans need to stop denigrating Babs as Batgirl because in the Nu52 reality she chose to put back on her cowl after a year of painful recovery and ongoing mental recovery.

Oracle was a stronger character thats end of discussion,That is not a matter of taste. Thats a matter of reading. Thats like saying Batman is stronger than Superman, my taste lean forward Batman but even I can read and see that Superman is Stronger. Only thing Batgirl (barbara @least DCnU) has over Oracle is the fact she can stand up out of the chair. No one said the physical thearpy was the cop out, its the surgery. Where was this painful recovery you keep mentioning because last book I read she had a surgery from a 3rd world country or something like that. She had a physical therapist but I have not read anything said it was a long hard uphill battle. You simply imply that like everything else you do about this book.

[batGRRRl4ever]

The rest of what you had to say isn't worth even bothering getting into as it's just an angry diatribe of opinion rather than a point of consensual discussion, but South Africa has some of the most advanced fronts on spinal surgeries on the planet, get your facts straight before unilateraly declaring an area "3rd world". And even if it hasn't been seen yet (but probably will be in issue #0 next September) physical rehab in general is a painful and drawn out process, and it has already been noted it took Barbara an entire year post-surgery to recover.

[carabas]

You know, the more I think about it, the more I am convinced DC really shot themselves in the foot by trying to keep as much of their old history as they could.

It's resulted in some serious half-assing. They should have just kept everything, and not have bothered to de-age everybody. Or they should have tosse it all out, no more Killing Joke, no more wheelchair in her history, just a strong, supersmart Batgirl who is everything Oracle ever was instead of this weakened version who is even less strong and smart than silver age, congress woman Bartbara Gordon used to be.

And that goes for a lot of the new 52 books.

[ffritts]

The rest of what you had to say isn't worth even bothering getting into as it's just an angry diatribe of opinion rather than a point of consensual discussion, but South Africa has some of the most advanced fronts on spinal surgeries on the planet, get your facts straight before unilateraly declaring an area "3rd world". And even if it hasn't been seen yet (but probably will be in issue #0 next September) physical rehab in general is a painful and drawn out process, and it has already been noted it took Barbara an entire year post-surgery to recover.

"Human Development Index". That measures countries according to life expectancy, literacy, education, and standards of living.

According to that South Africa comes in at 121st from the top out of 177.

Sounds 3rd world to me.

As for physical therapy taking a year, that is realitively short, considering most people go in and never come out walking much less spandex and roof jumping. I get where she took Batgirl after the shot, for me this book should have that ROCKY feel. It simply has that freakyfriday film and not the funny daughter trapped inside the mom, but the mom trying to be cool and funny in a bad way.

[bhandelman]

I simply saw them through a prism of misogyny and sexism that Babs could never be healed due to editorial mandate for over two decades yet Batman was right as rain after getting his back broken by Bane within a few issues.

Just to put some things in perspective, Barbara Gordon was already retired prior to the Killing Joke. It wasn't misogyny or sexism, it was DC deciding they didn't need all the various Bat family characters running around. It was the same decision to get rid of Supergirl, it wasn't because she was a girl but because they felt having multiple Kryptonion survivors lessened what made the character special. DC decided having a ton of vigilantes in Gotham made Batman less important. As it was she was used maybe twice since 1982?

The only reason she was kept in the wheelchair is because the Killing Joke was a popular story, and it was an opportunity for DC to portray a strong character in a wheel chair, giving her a prior history so people would care about her. If they had used a new character, people would not have cared about the character near as much, partly because of the bias such as the one you stated about only wanting to "read about SUPER heroes" which prevents the possibility of any persons with disabilities being a successful character.

In the case of Batman recovering in a few issues, it was more like a year of storyline. Azrael had something like 40 issues behind the cowl, and even after that Dick had to take over because Bruce was still recovering. Batman also got the mystic healing, it wasn't like he just suddenly stood up and used his manliness to overcome his injury. Also, you have to take into account the popularity of the characters as to how long DC is going to sideline them or how they are going to permanently change the role they fit. Batman is much older and the most popular comic book character there is, I don't think anyone thought he was actually going to stay in the wheelchair.

I know you feel there was a lot of misogyny in putting Barbara Gordon in a wheel chair, but I'll be honest you are really coming off as someone with severe prejudice against persons with disabilities. Barbara Gordon as Oracle was almost always treated as a strong leader, brilliant, and an invaluable member of the Batman family. You denigrating that to just some role she was forced into because Alan Moore and DC editorial hate women is pretty out there.

Regardless of all of this, the story was written nearly 25 years ago now. Barbara Gordon has been out of the wheel chair for nearly a year at this point, and she is not going back into it. Neither Alan Moore, the writer, nor Denny O'Neill, the editor, are still with the company. Just let it go and move on.

[batGRRRl4ever]

I know you feel there was a lot of misogyny in putting Barbara Gordon in a wheel chair, but I'll be honest you are really coming off as someone with severe prejudice against persons with disabilities. Barbara Gordon as Oracle was almost always treated as a strong leader, brilliant, and an invaluable member of the Batman family. You denigrating that to just some role she was forced into because Alan Moore and DC editorial hate women is pretty out there.

That statement as it is directed specifically at me, I have to respond that it is absolutely ludicrous. "Severe prejudice"? Just outright absurdity, I stated I have a preference for spandex wearing super heroes and the depiction of Oracle was "too real" for my tastes in comics, she WAS a hero, but clearly not a SUPER hero again in my explicitely explained preference for spandex wearing characters. You are throwing out the ableist term just because I and others prefer Barbara as Batgirl, that isn't a knock against those with disabilities, it's a preference in a comic book super hero. And finally I am always surprised by those who seem clueless to the absolutely in your face misogyny that was present by using Barbara's character in such a heinous and despicable manner in TKJ, and the throwaway mentality that was used to the character afterward until she was salvaged, abeit in more of a support role as Oracle to everyone in the super hero community.

Please watch who you want to with open abandon throw out the ableist insult towards, as it is a hollow false argument towards fans of Batgirl, when you are still hurting from the editorial change and you should direct your issues at DC Comics. I am just SICK and tired of this ableist insult being so casually thrown out there at fans who prefer Barbara in her primary identity. You AREN'T going to falsely shame her fans into cowering from using a FALSE insult for an AGENDA.

[shark]

People with disabilities can't be super heroes?

Wow.

You know, the more I think about it, the more I am convinced DC really shot themselves in the foot by trying to keep as much of their old history as they could.

It's resulted in some serious half-assing. They should have just kept everything, and not have bothered to de-age everybody. Or they should have tosse it all out, no more Killing Joke, no more wheelchair in her history, just a strong, supersmart Batgirl who is everything Oracle ever was instead of this weakened version who is even less strong and smart than silver age, congress woman Bartbara Gordon used to be.

And that goes for a lot of the new 52 books.

I agree, they should have retconned TKJ.

[batGRRRl4ever]

People with disabilities can't be super heroes?

I'm not even going to bother to refute with an explanation as you know full well that's not what I said.

[shark]

I'm not even going to bother to refute with an explanation as you know full well that's not what I said.

she WAS a hero, but clearly not a SUPER hero again in my explicitely explained preference for spandex wearing characters.

Do elaborate, please.

I mean, if the spandex makes the hero, we should ring all the characters that don't wear it and tell them they don't count because they are not wearing tight clothing.

[ffritts]

I'm not even going to bother to refute with an explanation as you know full well that's not what I said.

umm Yeah you did...

[ffritts]

That statement as it is directed specifically at me, I have to respond that it is absolutely ludicrous. "Severe prejudice"? Just outright absurdity, I stated I have a preference for spandex wearing super heroes and the depiction of Oracle was "too real" for my tastes in comics, she WAS a hero, but clearly not a SUPER hero again in my explicitely explained preference for spandex wearing characters. You are throwing out the ableist term just because I and others prefer Barbara as Batgirl, that isn't a knock against those with disabilities, it's a preference in a comic book super hero. And finally I am always surprised by those who seem clueless to the absolutely in your face misogyny that was present by using Barbara's character in such a heinous and despicable manner in TKJ, and the throwaway mentality that was used to the character afterward until she was salvaged, abeit in more of a support role as Oracle to everyone in the super hero community.

Please watch who you want to with open abandon throw out the ableist insult towards, as it is a hollow false argument towards fans of Batgirl, when you are still hurting from the editorial change and you should direct your issues at DC Comics. I am just SICK and tired of this ableist insult being so casually thrown out there at fans who prefer Barbara in her primary identity. You AREN'T going to falsely shame her fans into cowering from using a FALSE insult for an AGENDA.

Why is it always an extreme with you?

In basic terms all of your argument breaks down to:

I dont like heroes who dont wear spandex.

If you cant run and jump you cant be a superhero.

Sorry If you dont like the way things are now then you can keep your sexist and women in refridgerators in the back issue bins.