Should TKJ and upcoming Batgirl: TDR TPB be considered Pts. 1-2 of the same story?

[batGRRRl4ever]

I think we all know it's you who only see that and to answer your question( I will say I'm shocked it took your third post before you took a shot at the other Batgirls ), no

I think your projecting thoughts I do not have. I was referring to Barbara seeing her identity of Batgirl as her's in the context that she's aware she's not just a copy of BatMAN:

....we have a triumphant Barbara who retakes the mantle that she sees as HER'S, she KNOWS she's no distaff version of Batman....

Don't know where you got that I was talking about other versions of Batgirl from, as that wasn't what I was talking about, as clearly seen above when the second half of my quote is put back in.

[Guglio08]

Saying that Barbara is a better foil for The Joker than Batman because she was shot by him, was cured, and went back to crimefighting is perhaps the weakest argument in favour of such a proposition. You're discounting what makes the Batman / Joker relationship so potent.

[batGRRRl4ever]

That both Bruce and (?) had "one bad day" early in their lives and to handle it Batman became an obsessive-compulsive for order and Joker became a psychotic for chaos? I see it far more potent that Barbara is a DIRECT victim of the man who believes in a nihilistic philosophy and she painstakingly over the course of three years proved his philosophy wrong, first by simply living her life and making order out of her "one bad day" but then going the extra mile and donning her cowl again as Batgirl, now having an additional reason to protect Gotham as both survivor and avenger. More powerful to me at any rate.

[shark]

Saying that Barbara is a better foil for The Joker than Batman because she was shot by him, was cured, and went back to crimefighting is perhaps the weakest argument in favour of such a proposition. You're discounting what makes the Batman / Joker relationship so potent.

Yeah, wouldn't Jason be a better foil? Joker actually knew who he was killing, he didn't even know he was shooting Batgirl.

[ffritts]

No, I hate to burst your bubble but what is depicted is not like PTSD at all except for the nightmares. She doesn't have any of the major symptoms like avoidance or hyper-arousal or any of it, she has what someones idea of PTSD would be if their research was based on television and movies. It would be like a character with autism and your research was based on Dustin Hoffman's performance in Rain Man.

Thankfully, Gail Simone doesn't describe it as PTSD in the book itself at all, at least not in the first 6 issues that I just finished rereading.

The problem is its hard to depect PSTD in comics she wants all the small symptoms without having the larger "freak out" symptom. She should have went with a rusty fun sass and class Barbara instead of the 60 year old lingo and googler barbara.

[Jared]

The problem is its hard to depect PSTD in comics she wants all the small symptoms without having the larger "freak out" symptom.

That' a no-win proposition. Depict an established supererhero, especially a female one, going through realistic PTSD and sadly you'll be trashed (even by fans of the character) for making her look weak.

[Mr. Holmes]

Yeah, wouldn't Jason be a better foil? Joker actually knew who he was killing, he didn't even know he was shooting Batgirl.

Not to mention Jason uses Joker's previous identity.

[americanwonder]

Saying that Barbara is a better foil for The Joker than Batman because she was shot by him, was cured, and went back to crimefighting is perhaps the weakest argument in favour of such a proposition. You're discounting what makes the Batman / Joker relationship so potent.

Relationship? Well, there is a 'Batman is Gay' thread around here somewhere. ;)

I don't necessarily think Batgirl is the better foil overall; but for the TKJ and its aftermath, Batman as the counter to the Joker feels weak, because out of Bruce, Jim, and Babs, who really had the worst day here?

[bhandelman]

The problem is its hard to depect PSTD in comics she wants all the small symptoms without having the larger "freak out" symptom. She should have went with a rusty fun sass and class Barbara instead of the 60 year old lingo and googler barbara.

You are 100% right, which is why I'm glad Gail Simone never actually called it that in the book. I'll refrain from saying what Gail Simone should have done with her writing because I don't have anything to say on the matter than hasn't been said a thousand times in the last 8 months, but I agree with what you are saying.

[shark]

Relationship? Well, there is a 'Batman is Gay' thread around here somewhere. ;)

I don't necessarily think Batgirl is the better foil overall; but for the TKJ and its aftermath, Batman as the counter to the Joker feels weak, because out of Bruce, Jim, and Babs, who really had the worst day here?

Jason.

That said, Joker was, is and will always be Batman's foil, not Batgirl's.

[americanwonder]

Jason.

He wasn't in TKJ. ;)

That said, Joker was, is and will always be Batman's foil, not Batgirl's.

They do make a cute couple. ;)

[shark]

He wasn't in TKJ. ;)

No, but the story doesn't exist in a vacuum. If we did that, Joker shot Babs, not Batgirl, and she never recovered.

They do make a cute couple. ;)

Joker is just trying to show how much he loves him.

[americanwonder]

No, but the story doesn't exist in a vacuum. If we did that, Joker shot Babs, not Batgirl, and she never recovered.

Jason hasn't recovered either. ;)

Joker is just trying to show how much he loves him.

And Bruce loves him for it. ;)

[shark]

Jason hasn't recovered either. ;)

Never said he did. Just saying that if we only take TKJ, then she's an innocent bystander and not a foil by any means.

And Bruce loves him for it. ;)

He just refuses to admit it.

[americanwonder]

.... Just saying that if we only take TKJ, then she's an innocent bystander and not a foil by any means.

Which is why I said "TKJ and it's aftermath." Thinking about it, obviously Joker causes a lot of harm, but what direct harm has he caused Bruce? (note: I'm not saying direct harm is the only harm.)

He just refuses to admit it.

Oh, he knows, but he also knows Catwoman gets a little possessive and doesn't like to share her toys. ;)