Should TKJ and upcoming Batgirl: TDR TPB be considered Pts. 1-2 of the same story?

[batGRRRl4ever]

I think that Batgirl issues #1-6 that will be seen in tradepaperback form this upcoming July in Batgirl: The Darkest Reflection should be considered part of the same tale of The Killing Joke. Part one/chapter one was about the Joker trying to prove that life is essentially meaningless and part two/chapter two is about his primary victim Barbara who overcomes what happened to her and going right back out there as Batgirl to help others, thus completely invalidating what the Joker was trying to prove in TKJ, far better than Batman did, IMO over the course of these issues simply by being a survivor.

Pt. 1
Pt. 2

I see The Killing Joke as an incomplete chapter that now requires the reading of Batgirl #1-6 to get the full story of how the Joker's nihilistic philosphy is completely disproven by Batgirl, who accomplishes this by simply living her life, finding meaning and moving on and eventually becoming a crimefighter again on the rooftops and in the sewers of Gotham. Batgirl philisophically has proven herself to be the antithesis of what the Joker stands for, far more than the standard hero/archenemy dynamic between Bruce and the mad comedian. This show an INCREDIBLY far more inspirational tale if TKJ and Batgirl: TDR are bookended up against each other IMO, and an inspirational tale for many new readers who take both parts as just one tale that tells a greater whole.

[shark]

Never gonna happen.

[Ed Sizzers]

Removing how well (or indeed, not) they're written from the equation, I actually prefer Babs as Batgirl to Oracle. Bottom line, I'm shallow and the former wears a tight outfit and kicks ass.

But even I know that if we're talking about genuinely overcoming what the Joker did to her, then that's always going to Oracle's story. DCnU Babsgirl didn't overcome it. She was cured. And that's not even close to being the same thing.

[minasithil]

If anything like that did happen, which it won't, I'd say Oracle: Year one would be a better choice. Not to mention shorter and more solid.

[batGRRRl4ever]

DCnU Babsgirl didn't overcome it. She was cured. And that's not even close to being the same thing.

She overcame being a victim by simply living her life both the two years before and the one year post surgery physical rehab, and also all the while by issue #6 overcoming (for the most part) her PTSD from the experience while relearning to be Batgirl again, that is overcoming.

[bhandelman]

She overcame being a victim by simply living her life both the two years before and the one year post surgery physical rehab, and also all the while by issue #6 overcoming (for the most part) her PTSD from the experience while relearning to be Batgirl again, that is overcoming.

Just to let you know, whatever psychological issues she may have in Batgirl, what is depicted is about as far from the reality of PTSD as possible. If that is what Barbara Gordon is supposed to have, then as someone actually afflicted with it I would really appreciate Gail Simone doing some actual research into the disorder and handling it in a realistic manner.

[ffritts]

Just to let you know, whatever psychological issues she may have in Batgirl, what is depicted is about as far from the reality of PTSD as possible. If that is what Barbara Gordon is supposed to have, then as someone actually afflicted with it I would really appreciate Gail Simone doing some actual research into the disorder and handling it in a realistic manner.

Hate to burst your bubble but there are several degrees of PTSD and the first few issues 1-4 (thats the only issues I have read) actually show it. Sorry to hear you have it.

[Mr. Holmes]

The Killing Joke is a classic and staple of Batman lore, and probably the definitive Joker story. Batgirl is at best forgettable writing.

[bhandelman]

No, for two reasons:

1) The Killing Joke is not about Barbara Gordon in anyway. That is the whole reason you keep going on about it's sexism in other threads. It's about the Joker proving it only takes one bad day to turn someone insane, not that life is meaningless. The stories are not thematically connected in any way, so it would be really hard to consider them parts 1 and 2 of the same story.

2) A lot of really important things happened to Barbara Gordon in the three years between the stories timeline wise, so you couldn't consider it a direct sequel in story terms either even ignoring theme. It would be far more insulting to disabled people to completely ignore and discount her time in a wheel chair than how insulting the Killing Joke was to women.

And really, I don't get your obsession with this. You obviously don't care much for her portrayal pre-Crisis, and far more sexist things have happened in Batman comics than what happened in the Killing Joke in the last couple of years alone so it can't really be that. I mean, if you are going to be upset by a sexist event happening to the character you really should read The Brave and the Bold #78. I am not a big fan of the Killing Joke, I feel it didn't do anything with the Joker Denny O'Neill or Steve Englehart hadn't done a few years before, but it was published nearly 25 years ago and I rarely give it much thought now. It's time for you to move on. You obviously enjoy the current run of Batgirl, be happy with what you have and move forward.

[AaronStC]

No, because simply put, Batgirl is not intended to be a direct sequel to The Killing Joke. Sure it uses elements from TKJ but that hardly means anything. They do not make a complete story.

[Jake V]

Putting the current Batgirl series next to Alan Moore's Killing Joke isn't gonna do Batgirl any favors by inviting a comparison.

[minasithil]

I'm not going to even get started about my anger and issues regarding the Killing Joke, however--





If anything should be considered a part 2 or epilogue regarding Barbara's situation specifically post TKJ it should be the Oracle: Year One from Batman Chronicles 5.

Considering, y'know, it actually picks up right after the events of TKJ, addresses them, and is quite inspiring as we see Barbara work through her fear and her other issues to find a new mission and a new identity, looking to the future.

As much as I hate that fact sometimes or how it's handled, just because someone is influenced by a story doesn't mean that that story is theirs or any further exploration of the events is a sequel. Yes, I would highly recommend reading Oracle:YO right after TKJ if you're a fan of Barbara Gordon, but that doesn't make it a part 2, just supplementary material that helps make aspects of it more palatable. Moreover, the current Batgirl series is an ongoing and by its very nature is a different story format that is less tightly written and self-contained than a one shot like the Killing Joke making a comparison even less viable. Frankly, it's also just not as well-written or well-drawn as TKJ and this is from someone who doesn't even like the story that much.

[batGRRRl4ever]

See that artwork and the whole oracle history just says to me, "I couldn't cut it as Batgirl and will make the best of a bad situation." Whereas with the upcoming TPB of issues #1-6 of Batgirl we have a triumphant Barbara who retakes the mantle that she sees as HER'S, she KNOWS she's no distaff version of Batman, and works on overcoming PTSD to become an active hero again for the masses of Gotham. I prefer the new version of the aftermath of the TKJ as an inspiration of overcoming nearly unsurmountable obstacles, as opposed to just making do and doing the best from a bad ending, IMO.

I'm not saying the other version isn't inspirational for some, just not as inpirational as fully overcoming a previous obstacle in life, again IMO, not saying that my opinion is any definitive truth by any means.

[minasithil]

I don't want to turn this into a Batgirl vs. Oracle debate. The reason I brought O:YO up specifically was that in terms of being "part of the same story" O:YO fits the bill better because of the fact it deals with the direct time period right after she was shot, (a period that still exists in current continuity even if the events didn't happen the same) and has a direct confrontation with Bruce about TKJ as well as dealing with a lot of the fear and other issues, ending on an optimistic note.

Moreover, that still doesn't change the fact that character focus, tone, format, and a host of other factors prevent the current Batgirl series from remotely being considered a part 2 to the Killing Joke.

Also, think about it this way, do you really want to label the current Batgirl series as "Part 2", implying that you have to read The Killing Joke, which isn't about Barbara Gordon for better or for worse, to understand the events of Batgirl? Which you don't.

[Ed Sizzers]

I'm not saying the other version isn't inspirational for some, just not as inpirational as fully overcoming a previous obstacle in life, again IMO, not saying that my opinion is any definitive truth by any means.

You're still suggesting that it's somehow more inspirational to be cured of a disability than it is to accept it and not let it stop you from doing anything you want to do and more. I honestly think you're on your own with that one.