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  1. #136
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lemurion View Post
    "Daughter of Batman and Catwoman from another Universe." That sentence tells a member of the general public who doesn't read comics quite a lot about who Huntress is. It creates a stronger picture than any comparable sentence I can think of does of Helena Bertinelli. It's a better high concept and easier to market.
    I don't really agree. While I don't think parallel universes are too complicated for new readers the way a lot of people seem to think, I do think the "from another Universe" part of your description just raises more questions.
    Last edited by Mr. Holmes; 04-28-2012 at 07:45 PM.

  2. #137
    Elder Member thwhtGuardian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jared View Post
    To someone who doesn't read comics, that sentence will illicit a "huh?" I don't see how it's going to draw in any more readers than Bertinelli's concept would. Maybe it won't draw any *less*, but what's the point of pissing on an established fan base unless you're going to gain enough new readers to make it worthwhile.
    eh, I don't think it would be an issue for non-comic readers, they know who Batman and Catwoman are and are aware of the commonly used trope of alternate realities. And perhaps this is a bit of naivete showing but I'd like to think that only a minority of fans are going to feel "pissed" on, I'd hope most would be rational and take it in stride like anything else.
    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Holmes View Post
    I don't really agree. While I don't think parallel universes are too complicated for new readers the way a lot of people seem to think, I do think the "from another Universe" part of your description just raises more questions.
    I don't see how raising questions is a bad thing, I assume questions about the nature of the other universe and how they came to this one will be leading plot points that will be explored in the series and I think most readers are okay with gradually exploring situations that are initially confusing...I mean Lost was a huge success after all was it not?

    Or for a more comic related example I started reading the main Batman titles after Bruce was broken and JPV took over the cowl. I had zero knowledge of any of that however, all I knew about Batman came from the Super Friends, the Adam West show and I think the animated series had just started. I was about 6, I had no fore knowledge of what had happened in the series and at first I just thought Bruce was blond for some reason but after about two issues it sunk in that this was a different guy, he wasn't Adam West. Did I get confused? A little, but I didn't stomp my foot and proclaim, "This isn't my Batman!" I read on and gradually pieced together what had happened. That was my whole drive, I wanted that mystery solved, that's what made it fun.

    I don't see why it would be any different here for new readers, they're able to adapt to things that they don't initially understand because they rightly assume that it will be made clear as the story continues. That is in fact the natural way to experience a story, it's how we're trained to think based on nearly every reading experience.

    It's only the die hard fan who isn't content to let the answers come at their own pace, instead he's worried about his preconceptions of what is canon so he becomes upset and demands to have all the answers presented promptly and in a way that conforms to his views.

  3. #138

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    Honestly, all this talk of new readers and how Helena Wayne will be easier to understand is pointless. There are very few new readers, this decision was made because the higher ups preferred the concept of Helena Wayne.

    I disagree with that decision greatly, but they want to explore having her trapped in this universe and such, so there it is. Huntress was a minor enough character, I wouldn't be surprised if they had just asked Paul Levitz to write whatever version he wanted and this idea was brought up. I'm disappointed, but if Wally West fans are still floundering in the dark, arguing over the fate of my preferred version of the Huntress seems like a waste of time. Arguing over which version is easier for people who don't read comics to understand is an even bigger waste of time, because DC wasn't even considering that question in the first place.

  4. #139
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    Might have the new Batman movie with Catwoman might have had some influence on this decision?

  5. #140
    ZERUEL Dr.wonderful's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Captain Jim View Post
    This is really just more backpedaling from the recent Huntress mini. It's pretty clear that when Levitz started writing that, it was supposed to be about Helena Bertinelli. Then, soon after he started, it was decided to make Huntress Helena Wayne instead. So, he kind of explained at the end of the mini that Bertinelli was just an identity she adopted. This takes it a further step and says there had once been a real Helena Bertinelli. Sort of like Matches Malone.
    Damn, I was hoping I was the only one who figured that out.

  6. #141
    The Slender Man vampiric_cannibal's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Umbra View Post
    Might have the new Batman movie with Catwoman might have had some influence on this decision?
    Probably not. Didn't TDK come out with Bruce 'dead' and the joker absent for a year?
    I would like to say for the record that this is the FIRST TIME I've withheld dong when someone was so desperately asking for some.
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  7. #142
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    Quote Originally Posted by Umbra View Post
    Might have the new Batman movie with Catwoman might have had some influence on this decision?
    Nope. DC knows by now that even phenomenally succesfull films do absolutely nothing to boost comics sales. Just watch the sales charts in the next few months and keep an eye on what the various Avengers books are doing.
    'The marquis. Well, you know, to be honest, he seems a little bit dodgy to me.'
    'Mm,' she agreed. 'He's a little bit dodgy in the same way that rats are a little bit covered in fur."

  8. #143
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    Quote Originally Posted by thwhtGuardian View Post
    I don't see how raising questions is a bad thing, I assume questions about the nature of the other universe and how they came to this one will be leading plot points that will be explored in the series and I think most readers are okay with gradually exploring situations that are initially confusing...I mean Lost was a huge success after all was it not?
    Did I say it's a bad thing? I'm refuting the idea that this is more high concept and simpler than the mafia princess turned vigilante Huntress.

  9. #144
    The Dominoed Daredoll batGRRRl4ever's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by thwhtGuardian View Post
    I don't see why it would be any different here for new readers, they're able to adapt to things that they don't initially understand because they rightly assume that it will be made clear as the story continues. That is in fact the natural way to experience a story, it's how we're trained to think based on nearly every reading experience.

    It's only the die hard fan who isn't content to let the answers come at their own pace, instead he's worried about his preconceptions of what is canon so he becomes upset and demands to have all the answers presented promptly and in a way that conforms to his views.
    The term is called "continuity junkie", a reader who gets so obsessed over minute to minute minutia they no longer care nor can they enjoy the actual story before them. For them it's, "But, BUT the batmobile was always parked on the RIGHT side of the cave, Batman parked in the MIDDLE! This just won't stand, I'm sending a letter and demanding the editors resignation!!!" The effect is obvious in those who are tripping even before Worlds' Finest #1 is even out. Comics change CONSTANTLY, the players stay mostly the same but the colors and make of the chairs they are sitting on get changed to reflect the times and to keep the stories interesting. This truth has been around for decades, it's not like it's a big secret shock.

    On the other hand, for some younger readers Flashpoint may have very well been their version of COIE. I know that I mostly abandoned DC comics (except for Justice League, the funny version, back in the 80's) in protest to what happened both to Huntress (changed into someone else with different history but with the same face) and also Batgirl (again changed into someone else entirely as oracle but with same prior history). But as everything in comics runs in cycles, albeit DC has done so in some pretty LOOOOOOOONG cycles, it all comes back around eventually. People who grew up with the Post-COIE/Pre-Flashpoint DCU have the choice to accept what has occured and try to enjoy and accept the stories for what they are in terms of who Helena is NOW, or they can take a break and read Marvel and Independent titles for a bit. But to become a continuity junkie takes all the fun out of reading comics in the first place, IMO.
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    Batgirl, Inhuman, Justice League Beyond 2.0, Letter 44, She-Hulk, SM/WW, Swamp Thing, Ultimate FF (lol, 5 of my 8 titles all written by SOULE)

  10. #145
    Junior Member Rory426's Avatar
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    It's a shame they did this, I would have thought leave it alone for a bit and then reveal that both Helena's are in the same universe would have been an interesting kind of "Fringe"-like way to go with World's Finest later on. I added the title to my pull ages ago but if I don't like the rest of this #1 it's going right away.
    Currently enjoying: Batman, Detective Comics, American Vampire, Saga, The Wake, Letter 44, The Manhattan Projects, Atomic Robo, East of West, Ghosted, FBP...

  11. #146
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    Quote Originally Posted by thwhtGuardian View Post
    This doesn't make sense to me at all, other than the Huntress mini we don't really know much about Helena Wayne in the new continuity so on what are you basing your decision on? How do we know HW isn't a fully fleshed out and complex character?

    This seems like a classic definition of the phrase, "putting the cart before the horse." to me.

    I remember reading a lot of posts like this when Dick Grayson but on the cowl, "This isn't my Batman! I can't wait until they come to their senses and go back to writing stories about the REAL Batman."

    And what did we get from that change? Some pretty fun Batman stories. The same probably happened when they ditched the Helena Wayne and introduced Bertinrelli and to the same result; it was a big change but we got some really cool stories because of it.

    Is it kind of sucky that they decided not to write stories about a character you enjoyed? Sure, no one's saying it isn't, but at the same time I don't see how judging a new story based solely on the very emotional reason that it isn't about the character you wanted makes much sense.
    You're right in a sense, but I my fleshed out V what-if comments were based on the previous versions of the characters.

    This HW might be better (though the issues I read of that mini failed to impress me) but I won't read it on principle.

    Also, for what its worth I like Grayson as Batman more than Bruce

  12. #147
    Veteran Member Fate's Faith's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rory426 View Post
    It's a shame they did this, I would have thought leave it alone for a bit and then reveal that both Helena's are in the same universe would have been an interesting kind of "Fringe"-like way to go with World's Finest later on. I added the title to my pull ages ago but if I don't like the rest of this #1 it's going right away.
    I think that the introduction of Earth 2 is actually the cause for the change and the reveal. The existance of the Huntress mini to me shows DC wants to promote the character and now they've be able to create a title that may be a little stronger while at the same time strengthen Earth 2 by giving it some kind of historical impact on the relaunched universe. I don't think that's not valid move even though Helena Bertinelli had to lose out for the time. The only question for me is if the character as she now stands will be as appealing. She may not but then she may and I don't see why others wouldn't be willing to see because this swapping out of characters under the mask doesn't seem to be stopping. Its apparent the Huntress has more value than either Helena Wayne or Helena Bertinelli. Seems Superman is the only one immune to having his codename used by another.

  13. #148
    Elder Member thwhtGuardian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Russell View Post
    You're right in a sense, but I my fleshed out V what-if comments were based on the previous versions of the characters.

    This HW might be better (though the issues I read of that mini failed to impress me) but I won't read it on principle.

    Also, for what its worth I like Grayson as Batman more than Bruce
    I don't think that assumption is based much on the previous version of the character either, she was very much a fully realized character in Infinity Inc. True, she was slightly more innocent, and simple but she was written way so as it to fit in tonally with the other Earth 2 characters so it's a stylistic choice not a reason to say she wasn't written as well as Bertinelli.

  14. #149

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    Quote Originally Posted by Fate's Faith View Post
    Seems Superman is the only one immune to having his codename used by another.
    Someone must have missed out on the 90s.

  15. #150
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    Quote Originally Posted by CagedLeo730 View Post
    Equipment that'll help get her home. That's been her priority number 1 since coming to this Earth. She wants to go home.
    Has she clicked her heels together yet?
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