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  1. #181
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    How exactly does it merge the two "quite well?"

  2. #182
    Anarchist Cat Owner pryde15's Avatar
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    I just don't understand what Bertinelli's death adds to the story, it would've been just as simple to say that Wayne took upon the guise after the mob princess went into protect services. If they wanted to rile up controversy before their first issue, then congrats.

  3. #183

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    Quote Originally Posted by Toreador View Post
    Change happens. Either give the new version a chance or put your blinders on and condemn the series sight unseen. DC is hoping to attract new readers with a fresh unburdened character and will likely tweak this a bit until they find the right mixture to build a strong base. Just as they did when the Bertinelli Huntress first arrived on scene.
    Without fail whenever I start reading and enjoying DC comics they erase a character I love because they aren't "new reader friendly". This has been happening since I was eight. I'm currently reading Batwoman, which I had been reading before the New 52(counting Rucka's detective run), but aside from that I'm not willing to buy or give any other DC books a try. I'm just fed up this kind of stuff now.

    Quote Originally Posted by coveredinbees View Post
    Read No Man's Land! It's one of my favorite Batman stories, and Huntress was exciting in it. It used a lot of Batman's supporting cast really well.
    That was such a good story. I got the trades and the novel.
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  4. #184
    Scary lady Chris Lang's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by beetlebum View Post
    As for me, I'm crestfallen over this.

    I will not be foaming at the mouth angry and express my disapproval in that way. But I am not happy.

    I just take comfort in the hope that Bertinelli will be back at a later date, because hardly anyone stays dead in comics.
    Quote Originally Posted by RandomFalls View Post
    Well this just makes me sad. One of my favourite characters is killed off panel and her death announced in an off-handed way. This feels very messy and more than a little insulting to Helena B. fans. It would have been better to not mention her at all; keep the hope alive and all that, and she could possibly have been introduced later on down the line. Not as Huntress but just as helena Bertinelli, school teacher.



    Yet. They haven't fridged the others off panel yet.

    And THIS is why I don't read DC Comics anymore.

    If they're going to kill off characters who had previously been important ... who had been STARRING characters in a series ... off-panel, with an announcement like that ... then clearly those in charge don't care about the characters. And if THEY don't care, why should we get attached to any characters who aren't starring in movies, hit animated series, and so on? Why should we care about anyone other than the Trinity of Superman, Batman, and Wonder Woman?

    Anyway, this is NOT how you kill off an established character, unless the actor who played the character died (or the actor and the producers had a falling out. See Shannon Doherty and the series 'Charmed' for one example). But these are comic books we're talking about here. Comic book characters don't have actors. Writers don't have to kill off the characters when the actors die, or kill them off or otherwise write them out in an undignified way if the actor upsets the people running the show. Despite this, we see characters in comic books die in this sort of undignified 'soap opera' manner all the time.

    And that's NOT how you should kill off a character. Characters should be given a good last moment. They should die in a story that features them as an important character, in a manner fitting the character. Good examples are Barry Allen and Kara Zor-El in Crisis on Infinite Earths. Back then, they were given heroic, dramatic, emotional farewells.

    But I get the impression these days Kara Zor-El would instead get a one-line mention of how she accidentally encountered a Gold Kryptonite meteor while she was flying, lost her powers, and fell to her death. Sadly, comic books in general are not written as good as they used to for the most part. Though I'm sure if the editors tasked Gail Simone with writing Helena out, she would have made it a LOT more meaningful.

  5. #185
    Making Mischief The Great Grape's Avatar
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    I wonder if attempting to ward off ongoing speculation about when/if Helena B was going to show up was possibly part of the motivation for such an upfront offing?

    By doing it this way, they are basically saying she's not going to. While quietly keeping to themselves the option of pulling a surprise down the line at their own leisure.

  6. #186
    Scary lady Chris Lang's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ziggy Stardust View Post
    I so get the impression Gail is not happy with how things are going, but is keeping quiet so as to keep working.
    Well, Gail Simone said something when Ryan Choi was killed off to the effect that it's the downsides of working in a shared universe.

    Quoting from an old YABS post, in one of the Ryan Choi threads...

    Quote Originally Posted by Gail Simone
    It's just a matter of a bunch of elements that I don't agree with anyway and so the decision was made and that's that, and that's how it goes when you deal with a shared universe. Toes get stepped on, your Faberge Egg is someone else's ashtray, it sucks but it's how it goes.
    In other words, even if she does not like what happens to characters she writes once other writers/editors get a hold of them, there isn't much she can do about it. If the editors really want Helena Bertinelli gone, forgotten, and thrown in the trash, then Gail can't very well use her again without pissing off those who wanted her gone.

    Whether Helena Bertinelli will ever be seen again depends on just how badly those in charge want the books closed on her. If they REALLY want her gone, then this will probably be the final word on her. If, on the other hand, this is just laziness and they don't care what happens to her, it's possible someone could do something. But very few 'fridged' characters ever return from the dead, sadly.

    Gail probably would have already brought Ryan Choi back to life if she thought she could get away with it. But she hasn't, because it would probably be more trouble than it's worth to go against those who sicced the Plot Reaper onto Ryan Choi.

    EDIT: For those who don't follow TV Tropes, the Plot Reaper is a term used for killing off a character because they stand in the way of the story the writer wishes to tell. Uncle Owen and Aunt Beru go this way in Star Wars, the Kraken goes this way in the third Pirates of the Carribean movie ... and Helena Bertinelli has clearly gone this way.
    Last edited by Chris Lang; 05-01-2012 at 07:41 PM.

  7. #187
    ... with the High Command Lemurion's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chris Lang View Post
    And THIS is why I don't read DC Comics anymore.

    If they're going to kill off characters who had previously been important ... who had been STARRING characters in a series ... off-panel, with an announcement like that ... then clearly those in charge don't care about the characters. And if THEY don't care, why should we get attached to any characters who aren't starring in movies, hit animated series, and so on? Why should we care about anyone other than the Trinity of Superman, Batman, and Wonder Woman?

    Anyway, this is NOT how you kill off an established character, unless the actor who played the character died (or the actor and the producers had a falling out. See Shannon Doherty and the series 'Charmed' for one example). But these are comic books we're talking about here. Comic book characters don't have actors. Writers don't have to kill off the characters when the actors die, or kill them off or otherwise write them out in an undignified way if the actor upsets the people running the show. Despite this, we see characters in comic books die in this sort of undignified 'soap opera' manner all the time.

    And that's NOT how you should kill off a character. Characters should be given a good last moment. They should die in a story that features them as an important character, in a manner fitting the character. Good examples are Barry Allen and Kara Zor-El in Crisis on Infinite Earths. Back then, they were given heroic, dramatic, emotional farewells.

    But I get the impression these days Kara Zor-El would instead get a one-line mention of how she accidentally encountered a Gold Kryptonite meteor while she was flying, lost her powers, and fell to her death. Sadly, comic books in general are not written as good as they used to for the most part. Though I'm sure if the editors tasked Gail Simone with writing Helena out, she would have made it a LOT more meaningful.
    The problem is that Helena Bertinelli was not an established character in the current DCU. They couldn't have taken her off the board that way in this universe without bringing her onto the board first, and that would have defeated the purpose of having only one Huntress in the DCU.

    For me, Helena Bertinelli had a great final appearance in the last issue of Secret Six, along with the only version of Bane I've ever liked as a character.

    That's the problem with a lot of the characters they left out of the relaunch, they just don't fit very well with what DC is trying to do with the relaunch. It sucks for those people who are most attached to those characters, but it makes sense with their stated goals.
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  8. #188
    Rocket surgeon Sunbird's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lemurion View Post
    The problem is that Helena Bertinelli was not an established character in the current DCU. They couldn't have taken her off the board that way in this universe without bringing her onto the board first, and that would have defeated the purpose of having only one Huntress in the DCU.

    For me, Helena Bertinelli had a great final appearance in the last issue of Secret Six, along with the only version of Bane I've ever liked as a character.

    That's the problem with a lot of the characters they left out of the relaunch, they just don't fit very well with what DC is trying to do with the relaunch. It sucks for those people who are most attached to those characters, but it makes sense with their stated goals.
    Of course a huge part of the problem was that the reboot was so rushed that we never got a decent farewell for so many of these characters. If you take those that say this isn't our Helena that was fridged, that just means that our Helena was fridged 8 months ago instead. Killed off without so much as a decent goodbye.
    "Man invented language to satisfy his deep need to complain" Steven Pinker

  9. #189
    Senior Member Toreador's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by blanchett View Post
    Without fail whenever I start reading and enjoying DC comics they erase a character I love because they aren't "new reader friendly". This has been happening since I was eight. I'm currently reading Batwoman, which I had been reading before the New 52(counting Rucka's detective run), but aside from that I'm not willing to buy or give any other DC books a try. I'm just fed up this kind of stuff now.


    That was such a good story. I got the trades and the novel.
    I've been reading comics since before CIE and that's happened to me a lot. I didn't like it when Wayne Huntress was erased after Crisis. Will Payton Starman was my favorite character. I liked the Mark Shaw Manhunter. The Raymond/Stein Firestorm was a great character.

    But if I'd given up on DC I would have missed out the great Jack Knight Starman, growing to like the Helena Bertinelli Huntress and reading the different takes of Chase Lawler and Kate Spencer Manhunters (the Rusch Firestorm was so-so and I'm on the fence of the new Firestorm).
    In search of Claire...or Libby Hoeler :D

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  10. #190
    Were You There? Michael P's Avatar
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    As a fan of Spider-Man's marriage, I offer sincere condolences to Post-Crisis Huntress fans everywhere.

    I know that feel, bro.
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  11. #191
    Scary lady Chris Lang's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sunbird View Post
    Of course a huge part of the problem was that the reboot was so rushed that we never got a decent farewell for so many of these characters. If you take those that say this isn't our Helena that was fridged, that just means that our Helena was fridged 8 months ago instead. Killed off without so much as a decent goodbye.
    True. At least with Kara Zor-El, we were given a great, moving, farewell. She died in battle against the Anti-Monitor, and she actually forced the Anti-Monitor to retreat. And she was given a moving memorial service to give the fans closure.

    No such respect is given to Helena Bertinelli. She's just treated like an embarrasment that DC wanted swept under the rug. And the symbolism of her passport being burned indicated that those in charge feel the same way about her as those behind 'One More Day' felt about Spider-Man's marriage. Instead of being treated like the important, strong, character who had plenty of fans, she's instead treated as if she were a mistake.

    Very insulting to her fans.

    I guess at this point the only advice that can be given to her fans is to re-read Grant Morrison's Animal Man, which deals sympathetically with characters who've been written out of the continuity. We probably won't get any more new material featuring her, but as stated in Animal Man, comic book characters' lives are replayed every time people read the old comic books. So in a sense, they never die. They outlive their creators, they outlive their gods.
    Last edited by Chris Lang; 05-02-2012 at 06:22 AM.

  12. #192

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Holmes View Post
    How exactly does it merge the two "quite well?"
    I like Helena Wayne's origin combined with Helena Bertinelli's attitude. :)

    While I did enjoy the Bertinelli Huntress a lot, she was always a post-Crisis update of the Helena Wayne character. I don't view them as distinct entities but rather as flipsides of the same basic character (kind of like Elseworlds characters). Still, some of DC's decisions over the years have angered and disappointed me, so I can empathize with Bertinelli fans who feel like they've been given the shaft.
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  13. #193
    Elder Member thwhtGuardian's Avatar
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    I've never really understood the notion of being insulted because a comic company decides to stop publishing a fictional character that I enjoy. I'm not saying no one here has the right to feel that way, but personally I just shrug and find something else to read.

  14. #194
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    Quote Originally Posted by thwhtGuardian View Post
    I've never really understood the notion of being insulted because a comic company decides to stop publishing a fictional character that I enjoy. I'm not saying no one here has the right to feel that way, but personally I just shrug and find something else to read.
    Killing a character off screen is not the same as not publishing it anymore. Just like raping and killing a character is not the same as not publishing them anymore (Sue Dibny). Is the execution that matters. Why should I care about characters if DC is going to treat them like rubish?

  15. #195
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    Quote Originally Posted by mrrightnow View Post
    I like Helena Wayne's origin combined with Helena Bertinelli's attitude. :)
    It's kind of a meaningless statement given that Helena Bertinelli's attitude comes from her mafia background.

    While I did enjoy the Bertinelli Huntress a lot, she was always a post-Crisis update of the Helena Wayne character. I don't view them as distinct entities but rather as flipsides of the same basic character (kind of like Elseworlds characters). Still, some of DC's decisions over the years have angered and disappointed me, so I can empathize with Bertinelli fans who feel like they've been given the shaft.
    The only thing they have in common is the code name and first name.

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