Nubia as a villain in Young Justice Invasion??!!!

[PauloIapetus]

I think it is more that other people (myself included) don't see the similarities you seem to see and/or don't think that the superficial similarities are enough warrant speculation that Phil Bourassa (or that deviantArt person) were influenced by older comic book artists depictions of other characters like Nubia, Komand'r, or the HIVE Queen.

Yeah, we have already discussed this, and this is all okay and natural to me ( as Greg Weisman also pointed out) the similarities are not so easily to track/interpret ( not even by himself). As I have already explained, time and time again, however, the design parallels ARE NOT the sole factors taken into account here, but I'll not repeat the same things already stated just for the sake of it.

And it's not too much trouble to emphasize: I wasnt't the only person that seemed to think that Wonder Woman and Queen Bee were suspiciously alike in the Cartoon. Queen Bee was changed to the extent that, at the first glance, nobody would have recognized her without the aid of Batman's profile added to the JLA's screens. I, myself, have watched the episode with the profile appearing but have forgotten entirely that particular piece when viewing the new Second Season trailer.

(...)
On a different note...

Is Queen Bee really a recognizable character...on the first quick glance of Queen Bee they showed I'm ashamed to admit that my first thought was "What is Wonder Woman doing with the super-villains?"
Then again given WW profound absence from this episode despite the fact we know they can use WW characters...maybe Batman did send her to work undercover in the Light as Queen Bee? That would also explain why Klarion was chosen over Circe or another magic based WW villain by the show creators...a WW foe would see through her disguise instantly. Meanwhile how many times has she gotten up close and personal with Lex, Vandal, Brain, Ocean Master, or Ras....not much I'd venture. Yeah...I doubt this crazy theory is really the case, but it would be sorta cool if it was though.

And, whatever might have been our respective opinions, IMO, to change/adulterate/edit a pre-existing picture posted in the WEB as if skin colour was the only element commented is to distort reality without warrant for rhetoric's sake.

As I've said, hopefully, time will tell what was already intentional and what was coincidental/unconscious in this case and, maybe, many others.

However, we must here emphasize that, given the nature of the beast, the disclosure of much of backstage information related to Wonder Woman's characters/backgrounds is, as stated before, politicaly incorrect and, because of this, is not suitable to be discussed openly by media professionals.

Especialy, and undestandably so, when these professionals are connected to corporative characters that are part of the fabric of shared universes developed during 70+ years, a very long time during which societies change and mutate, becoming unrecognizable and mutualy non-empathizable to groups of people that are looking to the same issues from quite distinct perspectives.

[Theozilla]

Just wanted to show the commentary that Jerome K. Moore, one of the show characters designers, gave for the Queen Bee mural art used in the Image cartoon:

WB Animation Character Design, YOUNG JUSTICE, Queen Bee Mural. Pencil, Digital Color.

For the first season episode, "Image," I was assigned to create a political mural of Queen Bee. This was for a scene where the mural would appear on a wall behind various foreign dignitaries on a rostrum before the national media.

Whenever I create images that appear in the YJ universe as "art," I opt to deviate from the show's animation style, as established by the Emmy Award-winning Lead Character Designer, Phil Bourassa. The idea is that "art" within this cartoon universe should represent the interpretive vision of an artist, as the subject is rendered larger than life. Going "off-model" is deliberate. In fact, that's the whole point. I took this same approach in designing the pantheon statues for the Hall of Justice in the opening episode of Season One.

Here, I endeavored to depict Queen Bee's exotic beauty, along with her aloof, regal quality. There is a touch of abstract modern art, with the stark, flat colors and shapes, on top of a tiled texture. The classic political art featuring Che Guevara was the clear influence. I felt that would work on multiple levels. The low angle appropriately makes Queen Bee appear lofty, while the light radiating from her adds a twisted beatific quality.

The tile mosaic is patterned after a honeycomb. Yeah, it isn't very subtle, but I couldn't resist trying to be cute. Heheh.
The dove was included to falsely depict Queen Bee as a peaceful and benevolent ruler, rather than as the dictator of Bialya.

It's so cool that actress Marina Sirtis provides the voice for Queen Bee, as I often had the privilege of drawing her likeness on the covers of DC's STAR TREK: THE NEXT GENERATION comics. I met her many years ago, and she's a very beautiful, genial, and hilarious woman.

As always, these color selections are my own, and they do not necessarily reflect those of the final version used in the actual episode. This image is the property of WB TV Animation.

Thanks for viewing!

As he says it seems real-life political art influenced the piece, rather than any comic art.

[PauloIapetus]

It's worth to remember: none artist is truly obliged to make an exaustive listing of all the influences/sources used in any work to the last minute detail...

Or, as Tolkien himself, quite ambiguous and self-contradictory about the "source hunting' subject, once pointed out:

"One writes such a story not out of the leaves of trees still to be observed, nor by means of botany and soil-science; but it grows like a seed in the dark out of the leaf-mould of mind: out of all that has been seen or thought or read, that has long ago been forgotten, descending into the deeps. No doubt there is much selection, as with a gardener: what one throws on one's personal compost-heap; and my mould is evidently made largely of linguistic matter." ~On the creation of LotR

Answering the specific question made by Theozila

PauloIapetus, out of curiosity do you hold the belief that artists/character-designers can be influenced by older characters without knowing it? Because I doubt that artists was consciously thinking of Komand'r when he/she made that piece of art. It seems like even if Phil Bourassa claimed Nubia was not a source of inspiration for Queen Bee's design you would still be pointing out the superficial similarities (that you apparently see).

Quite significant is this specific piece that explains the harsher look (IMO reminiscent of Komand'er hiperangular facial features, "sunken" cheeks etc) of the Queen Bee portrayed in this Jerome K. Moore's beautiful image. Notably interesting is the simultaneous presence of the dove bird ( deviously suggesting a non-existing innocence) in the villainess's hand and the mosaic "hive" "honey comb" motif combined, which were also present in George Pérez's picture of the HIVE leader.

Whenever I create images that appear in the YJ universe as "art," I opt to deviate from the show's animation style, as established by the Emmy Award-winning Lead Character Designer, Phil Bourassa. The idea is that "art" within this cartoon universe should represent the interpretive vision of an artist, as the subject is rendered larger than life. Going "off-model" is deliberate. In fact, that's the whole point. I took this same approach in designing the pantheon statues for the Hall of Justice in the opening episode of Season One.

[Nyssane]

It'd be nice to see some Wonder Woman villains in Young Justice...

But not Nubia.

[RandomFalls]

It'd be nice to see some Wonder Woman villains in Young Justice...

But not Nubia.

Devestation has actually already shown up, but with a very different design than from the comic. But yeah, I'm hoping Cheetah will show up at some point.

[kelly_warrior_princess]

This from the guy who filled 5 pages with a diatribe on Nubia, a character mostly forgotten, a character he NEEDS Queen Bee to be in the YJ cartoon.

- Is QB Nubia?
- No.
- Are you sure?
- Yes, they called her QB in the show.
- Well what if they wanted her to be Nubia at first but then changed it?
- She's QB and it's just the animation making everyone look the same.
- But what if....
- She's Queen Bee now, so who cares what they planned?
- Yeah but it's a conspiracy....

Not being able to accept reality, for when you absolutely must argue a moot point overnight.

But i'd agree with you, this is like the worst slippery slope argument ever. hypotheis made, hypothesis refuted.... weaker hypotheis made, weaker hypothesis refuted.... even weaker hypotheis made, even weaker hypothesis refuted.

[Mr. Holmes]

Queen Bee was changed to the extent that, at the first glance, nobody would have recognized her without the aid of Batman's profile added to the JLA's screens. I, myself, have watched the episode with the profile appearing but have forgotten entirely that particular piece when viewing the new Second Season trailer.

The people who watch Young Justice don't read comics, so they wouldn't recognize Queen Been no matter what.

[PauloIapetus]

The people who watch Young Justice don't read comics, so they wouldn't recognize Queen Been no matter what.

The person in the quoted message ( Xenity), clearly, was/is better familiarized with the comics, since that he'd given emphasis to the "recognizability" factor ( besides of this fact, we are already well acquainted with the poster and know that he is a comic book reader).

(...)
On a different note...

Is Queen Bee really a recognizable character...on the first quick glance of Queen Bee they showed I'm ashamed to admit that my first thought was "What is Wonder Woman doing with the super-villains?"
Then again given WW profound absence from this episode despite the fact we know they can use WW characters...maybe Batman did send her to work undercover in the Light as Queen Bee? That would also explain why Klarion was chosen over Circe or another magic based WW villain by the show creators...a WW foe would see through her disguise instantly. Meanwhile how many times has she gotten up close and personal with Lex, Vandal, Brain, Ocean Master, or Ras....not much I'd venture. Yeah...I doubt this crazy theory is really the case, but it would be sorta cool if it was though.

Furthermore, my message,obviously, was referring to the comic book readers that are following the series not to the public in general. Even the term "recognize" would not be applicable otherwise, unless that we are speaking about people already familiarized with the Comic book sources tapped by the Cartoon.

Ultimately my point was:even to this specific segment of the public ( comic book readers well acquainted with the "sources"), Queen Bee would not have been easily recognizable, given the extent of the changes made to the character that doesn't emulate virtualy any of the pre-existing versions in any media, comics OR animation.

[kelly_warrior_princess]

PauloIapetus please, just let it go. You constant fixation is bordering on being mentally unhealthy.

[PauloIapetus]

I'll repeat what I've said before :I'm Not-reading-your-messages, Kelly Warrior Princess.

I'd suggest that you should just ignore the thread if it is so annoying to you ( I think that I'm well capable of guessing about the content of your last message without reading it, am I not?..

It will go away soon enough without your frequent posting just to vent your dissatisfaction with a content that you are not even reading.

Here we have two messages showing that Queen Bee wasn't easily recognizable at first glance, just for clarity's sake, since that this fact migh have become half-forgotten due to the lapse of time.

Hi Paulolapetus :)

I can see some similarites - I didn't know she was Queen Bee when I first saw her in the episode.

(...)
On a different note...

Is Queen Bee really a recognizable character...on the first quick glance of Queen Bee they showed I'm ashamed to admit that my first thought was "What is Wonder Woman doing with the super-villains?"
Then again given WW profound absence from this episode despite the fact we know they can use WW characters...maybe Batman did send her to work undercover in the Light as Queen Bee? That would also explain why Klarion was chosen over Circe or another magic based WW villain by the show creators...a WW foe would see through her disguise instantly. Meanwhile how many times has she gotten up close and personal with Lex, Vandal, Brain, Ocean Master, or Ras....not much I'd venture. Yeah...I doubt this crazy theory is really the case, but it would be sorta cool if it was though.

[Dr. Hurt]

So you're just talking with yourself at this point right?

LOLOLOLOL this thread is freaking awesome!

[coveredinbees]

I love how PauloIapetus isn't the one bumping the thread or still talking about this.



I knew who Queen Bee was right away. I'd been waiting for her since "Bialya" was first uttered. I'm really disappointed she's not the bee swarming one, or even dressed like a bee, but mind control is nice, too.

I want Donna and some Wonder Woman foes to show up pronto.

[Gaelforce]

If you do not like or are not interested in the content of the thread, please refrain from commenting. Constant comments about the discussion without contributing to it do not serve any purpose.

Thank you :)

[PauloIapetus]

So you're just talking with yourself at this point right?

LOLOLOLOL this thread is freaking awesome!

No Dr Hurt, IMHO, YOU are freaking awesome.

Same principle valid to any "blogging activity". My experience with Wonder Woman's Fandom and its WEB/forum interactions has taught me that lack of informed/ interested feedback posted in the thread doesn't, necessarily, mean lack of readers or lack of valuable posted information, even to myself, in a posterior date.

The research and presented coalesced amount of data made available in the thread has become an enticing end by itself. Just take a look in the collection of images related to Queen Bee and Nubia posted in the topic ( I have learned plenty of new things in the thread).

Thanks for your interest!

[PauloIapetus]

I love how PauloIapetus isn't the one bumping the thread or still talking about this.



I knew who Queen Bee was right away. I'd been waiting for her since "Bialya" was first uttered. I'm really disappointed she's not the bee swarming one, or even dressed like a bee, but mind control is nice, too.

I want Donna and some Wonder Woman foes to show up pronto.

But I'm almost positive that the face of Queen Bee in the screen that was frequently unrecognized/ mistook by a Diana twin or disguised Diana, appeared way before Bialya's mention in the Cartoon. It was this early apperance that caused the confusion.

If you are so disapointed with the apparent lack of "alien" "bees" elements in Young Justice's Queen Bee, then I think that you should take into account the possibility pointed out in this post quoted right below. The frequent practice of animators of creating "composite characters" allows this possibility and fits very well with some of the thematic threads intertwined in the cartoon.

Quick Question:

Artemis seems to be a composite of elements of Tigress 2 and Arrowette. I have not seen Image, but comments by people who have makes me wonder if Queen Bee is instead of being one of the good number of villainesses to hold that name (mainly either aliens or femme Fatale dictators of the Bialyan) is either a composite of the two (even if Greg Weisman says it's the first Bialyan Queen Bee, it could have change or we still might see links to the alien Bee people version of Queen Bee even if it is not a composite).

Plus it would hook into the theme of Invasion if it links with the alien Queen Bee....

Thoughts?