Nubia as a villain in Young Justice Invasion??!!!

[Maximum Impact]

You got my hopes up for nothing. You're right though, she does look like a brown Wonder Woman. But I think the concept of Nubia was too progressive for tptb at DC to ever care about. Unfortunately they probably don't see the draw.

[PauloIapetus]

Sorry about this Maximum Impact, as yourself have seen, there were some plausible motives for me and, undoubtedly others, making the same confusion about the characters's ID, specialy considering Phil Jimenez's redesign of Nubia as a Post Infinite Crisis/Final Crisis character .





Ramona Fradon's design to Pre-Crisis Nubia, with SEVERAL resemblances to Queen Bee's design

[americanwonder]

Hi Paulolapetus :)

I can see some similarites - I didn't know she was Queen Bee when I first saw her in the episode. Maybe they're going for some thematic symilarities to WW and/or maybe a big reveal is in the works? Yeah, I doubt it.

[PauloIapetus]

They were completely dissimilar, as you know well American Wonder





It realy seems that Ramona Fradon's design in Superfriends comic book may have been "tapped" in order to provide a template to animated Queen Bee.

Post Crisis version also is completely distinct

[Eliseu Gouveia]

And, Eliseu Gouveia, your attitude in the thread could have been a bit more gracious in spite of your dissenting opinion as I have been towards your personal views about design and characterization. I'd think that you would be above this kind of derision. Sadly, I was mistaken about this.

Sorry.

Bad year.

[americanwonder]

They were completely dissimilar, as you know well American Wonder ...

They are very dissimilar in personality and morality. But both deal (have dealt) with themes of power and control, themes I think could be interesting to explore (or just punch in the face).

Bad year.

Sorry to hear that, Zeu. Hope better days are ahead.

[PauloIapetus]

Realy there is a very suspicious resemblance between them ( at least there is a golden headpiece in Ethan Van Sciver's version):

[PauloIapetus]

[PauloIapetus]

They are very dissimilar in personality and morality. But both deal (have dealt) with themes of power and control, themes I think could be interesting to explore (or just punch in the face).

Yeah, It seems to me that Queen Bee and Star Sapphire were both disguised "satires" (pun intended) of the "loving submission" and brainwashing practices of Golden Ages's Amazons (Venus's girdles etc). Take a look and see that both of them used "stars" in the brows in Pre Crisis's times.

"Complete obedience to loving authority"... Hah!
BTW, Marina Sirtis, that makes the voice of Queen Bee was one of the models to Post Crisis's Diana in George Pérez's recollections.

I agree with some other posters...Diana should have been Compassion. Her being love of people and planet was never really shown.

I disagree



And my WW idol Phil Jimenez has said and and pencilled ( must love the modern resources provided by the Internet)



And Diana as a Star Sapphire was an alusion to the fact that the entire concept of the Star Sapphires was a transparent "satire" made of the Wonder Woman ' Golden Age trappings, mostly, the brainwashing girdles of Venus used in the prisoners of Reformation Island. Marston used magical devices in order to transform/brainwash unwilling villains in creatures filled to the brim with "love".

In short: the brainwashing process of trhe Star Sapphires ( developed and shown with details by Johns) is a criticism of the Golden Age Stories of Wonder Woman and the entire "Loving Submission" culture of the GA's Amazons.

The Violet light represents the Purple Ray, the Zamarons, were intended as perversions of the Marston's Amazons, and the Queen Star Sapphire was intended as a villainized Diana, with Carol Ferris madly in love with a pilot ( same profession of Steve Trevor). The mad love is possibly a satire homage to the romantic stories of Kanigher's era that gravitated around Diana and Trevor's relationship .

Then, Diana transformad in a Star Saphire in BN, is a way of beginning the process of "purging" the concept of love of the Star Sapphires of its bad connotations, allowing, in future times, the "taming" of the Predator ( the incarnation of the Love as am Emotional Entity).

I like of thinking in the Emotional Spectrum Avatars as the Gods worshipped by the Aurakles, the beings made of light that were some of the first living beings in the Universe.

[PauloIapetus]

[Theozilla]

Realy there is a very suspicious resemblance between them (at least there is a golden headpiece in Ethan Van Sciver's version)

I am telling you Phil Bourassa (the character designer) did not take any inspiration from Nubia. Go to Greg Weisman's Ask Greg website and there should be a question-answer concerning the inspiration of the designs of the The Light members, none of it mentions Nubia.

And Queen Bee's powers are hardly reminiscent of the "loving authority" theme of Marston. It is much more similar to Poison Ivy's power.

[PauloIapetus]

Thanks for the suggestion but I'm very well familiarized with the kind of interviews and statements made under those circunstances and, quite frankly, I'm very suspicious if they realy contain all the truth about the matter, specialy when some observations and comments would imply in second guessing the intentions of other artists already dead from the Golden and Silver Ages.

In despite of how much time has lapsed from these old times, I think that some obvious truths cannot be stated in explicit form because they are politicaly incorrect.

How many people already commented about the similarity of Silver Age star Sapphire and her Zamarons with the Golden Age Wonder Woman and her Amazons? Not many I'd guess.

[Theozilla]

Thanks for the suggestion but I'm very well familiarized with the kind of interviews and statements made under those circunstances and, quite frankly, I'm very suspicious if they realy contain all the truth about the matter, specialy when some observations and comments would imply in second guessing the intentions of other artists already dead from the Golden and Silver Ages.

Second guessing? Of what? Phil Bourassa, Greg Weisman, and Brandon Vietti have no reason or motives to lie about their inspirations in character and/or plot design.

[Dr. Hurt]

What's this obsession with Nubia? I dont get it. Does you life depend on this character being Nubia and not Queen Bee? It's stated in the series that she's Queen Bee, and she features prominently in an episode towards the end of the season.

[PauloIapetus]

Second guessing? Of what? Phil Bourassa, Greg Weisman, and Brandon Vietti have no reason or motives to lie about their inspirations in character and/or plot design.

Again how many people do you already saw commenting about the obvious Gardner Fox's swipping/satire of Wonder Woman Golden Age persona and trappings in Silver Age counterparts such as Star Sapphire and, quite possibly, Queen Bee too? I'm betting that you are not taking into account that Nubia is a "politicaly incorrect character", starting with its very name ( it was due to this fact that her Post Crisis counterpart was rebaptized as "Nu'bia").

BTW, I have nothing save the utmost respect toward Greg Weisman ( I'm a lurker in his forum Ask Greg since the first times in which I've entered the Web after Gargoyles exhibition in my country), but I'd realy doubt that he would be so very open about, for instance, Gargoyles's Cuchulainn indebtness towards Marvel's Thor in the time in which the series was being produced. Several years later he could spoke about the subject with so much more freedom and confessing to be dissatisfied with the characterizations's outcome due to the exagerated resemblance. It's perfectly possible to imagine that he and his colleagues are in a similar position in this ocasion.

If you, simply, doesn't see why the use of the name of Nubia and her background composed with Queen Bee's characterization would be, potentialy, a controversial subject ( see my previous posts) we can simply agree to put aside the matter and interrupt the conversation.

But I'm quite certain that American Wonder and other posters are truly grasping about what I'm talking about here, including the subtle innuendoes linked to Wonder Woman and JLA's creative history.

What's this obsession with Nubia? I dont get it. Does you life depend on this character being Nubia and not Queen Bee? It's stated in the series that she's Queen Bee, and she features prominently in an episode towards the end of the season.

Dr Hurt, personaly, it doesn't make any difference to me if Queen Bee's animated counterpart might have been blended or not with a mixture of Nubia's elements. I wasn't "obsessed" with the subject just because I've created a topic in order to make valid questions. I never have said that Young Justice's Queen Bee is Nubia after being told his true identity in the cartoon,

I'm only saying that she seemed to be incorporating aspects of Nubia's visuals and features and presenting a strange similarity to Diana's figure not entirely justified by character design style , an entirely different thing, due to what is, to me, a hidden motive; an observation that was understood by at least two other members of this forum that have posted in this topic.

You got my hopes up for nothing. You're right though, she does look like a brown Wonder Woman.

Hi Paulolapetus :)

I can see some similarites - I didn't know she was Queen Bee when I first saw her in the episode.

As the pictures included in the thread shown quite well, it seems to me very feasible that this fact has ocurred to some extent. Other similar events have ocurred before with characters of Wonder Woman's mythos while transposed to animated media, and if you and other posters such as Theozila don't think, so, I can perfectly well give my thanks for your feedback, as I've done before, but/and still remain, as I do, convict that there is some Nubia's resemblance in Queen Bee's animated version due to some reason, whatever it might have been.

The simple fact that, this time, the character ( Queen Bee) was so drasticaly altered in comparison with any of her comic book or animated selves presented previously is an indication that some thing different was added to the mixture of its re/creation in Young Justice. She was truly unrecognizable to anyone familiarized with her history and looks.

Feel free to make your own mind and accept what is publicly told at face value if it suits you, but doesn't expect that I'd agree with you.