Azzarello and Chiang at Chicago Con-- Spoilers--?

[Fate's Faith]

I agree with this post entirely. I say this as someone who loves the current run and has read some (not all) past runs. I do agree that sometimes her stories don't measure up to her iconic status. Are all of her stories flat? Not at all. I've read enjoyable Wonder Woman stories. I often wonder where people get the idea of her supposed faults, unless they are just quoting what a few industry writers have said about her.

I also don't understand why people love to obsess over her "issues". Some people love going on and on about the supposed plethora of reasons why Wonder Woman doesn't completely "work". Again, I notice many of these people barely read her book before the reboot. Heck, some people still have the conversation despite her title's current critical and sales acclaim.

To be honest, from my perspective, its discussions in which you can list many reasons why the current run is valid and an improvement over previous runs and someone just toss out they crapped all over Wonder Woman and this isn't Wonder Woman as legitiment responses. Overall, I feel the detractors have taken extreme delight in picking apart the current run. No matter what the case may be and many times stating that the real Diana or the real Amazons would do nothing like that giving the impression they were perfect in some manner. I mean, many of these threads got heated when issue #7 came out because of the status of feminism of the old run. And I don't think they were pointing to a flaw in their minds. And if anyone mentions they aren't perfect as they used to be we get a response of they've never been without flaws. But you know what's missing? Specifics. Because it seems all the flaws they exhibit before this run were due to bad writing and editorial direction. Not that the characters actually had flaws because if they did, it was due to bad writing. So, I'll say it this time. If you scrub out all the Amazons Attack and such from the past run, these characters had no flaws. And while I didn't read the later issues I can certainly testify to the first of it.

[Javier Velasco]

Even if you take Azzarello's statement about Diana having been previously portrayed as "perfect" as a truism, it does not make his statement that you cannot tell compelling stories with perfect characters true.

Why? Because these "perfect" character's stories are being told in an imperfect world. The idea that in order to make WW "work" he had to mess with her backstory is just wrong on the face of it. There is no reason that ANY writer needs to ever show us a single Amazon or explain their motivations.

One of the most "perfect" characters ever created was Lancelot. His very perfection is one of the things that makes the story of Arthur, Guinevere, and Lancelot compelling and tragic. Would it be more compelling if we discovered that he had been abused by the Lady of the Lake as a child? No.

The thing is, if Azzarello has given even one, just one, interview where he said something positive about the WW character (let alone any of her previous creative teams), many of her fans would probably cut him a little more slack.

To that end, I would propose this. Would Mr. Azzarello's supporters please be so kind as to post the top 3 statements that the writer has made about the character herself? Not the Amazons. Not his reinterpretation of the Greek pantheon. But Diana herself.

Thanks in advance.

[SteveGus]

So, I'll say it this time. If you scrub out all the Amazons Attack and such from the past run, these characters had no flaws. And while I didn't read the later issues I can certainly testify to the first of it.

And those later issues you didn't read gave us a variety of warlike and mentally unstable Amazons. What they failed to do was to barbarize and criminalize the entire society.

I don't like the tone or the story of Azzarello's run at all. Reading it is like watching someone pull the wings off a butterfly. I would prefer something more rousing and uplifting when he leaves.

Still, I wouldn't mind so terribly --- if it wasn't for 1./ the reboot and 2./ the fact that people who have been reading the book already endured a year long story about the extermination of the Amazons. I don't want the rest of her developed supporting cast to be abandoned in favor of having these odd versions of the Greek pantheon be a perennial presence. And I don't want his version of the state of the civilization of Paradise Island to become the official version in the nu52 universe.

[Reginleif]

And those later issues you didn't read gave us a variety of warlike and mentally unstable Amazons. What they failed to do was to barbarize and criminalize the entire society.

I don't like the tone or the story of Azzarello's run at all. Reading it is like watching someone pull the wings off a butterfly. I would prefer something more rousing and uplifting when he leaves.

Still, I wouldn't mind so terribly --- if it wasn't for 1./ the reboot and 2./ the fact that people who have been reading the book already endured a year long story about the extermination of the Amazons. I don't want the rest of her developed supporting cast to be abandoned in favor of having these odd versions of the Greek pantheon be a perennial presence. And I don't want his version of the state of the civilization of Paradise Island to become the official version in the nu52 universe.

so do you like any element of Azz's work?

[Gaelforce]

I think part of what bothers me about the current run (which I am of two minds on - parts I love, parts I hate) is twofold:

1. DC swore up one side and down the other that this was not a 'reboot'. Azzarello said this would be a 'soft' reboot. It's anything but, imo.
2. Azzarello said in no uncertain terms that he wasn't changing her history, yet he's done exactly that.

He's completely changed her origin and totally re-written the history of the Amazons.

I just never like being misled by creators. I'm fine with folks keeping secrets about what they're going to do, but I really don't like being told things that are just flat out not true. It just leaves a bad taste in my mouth that taints my view of the book :/

[Reginleif]

I think part of what bothers me about the current run (which I am of two minds on - parts I love, parts I hate) is twofold:

1. DC swore up one side and down the other that this was not a 'reboot'. Azzarello said this would be a 'soft' reboot. It's anything but, imo.
2. Azzarello said in no uncertain terms that he wasn't changing her history, yet he's done exactly that.

He's completely changed her origin and totally re-written the history of the Amazons.

I just never like being misled by creators. I'm fine with folks keeping secrets about what they're going to do, but I really don't like being told things that are just flat out not true. It just leaves a bad taste in my mouth that taints my view of the book :/

so, do all of the WW mods dislike this WW?

[Javier Velasco]

I just never like being misled by creators. I'm fine with folks keeping secrets about what they're going to do, but I really don't like being told things that are just flat out not true. It just leaves a bad taste in my mouth that taints my view of the book :/

Well that is because, in normal everyday parlance, that is called false advertising.
DC and its creators know that readers and fans are listening to them in advance of purchasing their books. When they talk, they are in effect hyping their goods. They aren't just misleading fans. They are misleading customers.

To them it may seem harmless fun at the expense of fanboys (and girls), but what they are in effect doing alienating the very people who allow them to get paid for telling 28 page stories about people who dress in colorful underwear.

[Javier Velasco]

so, do all of the WW mods dislike this WW?

I like seeing WW doing superpowered feats. Flying. Lifting large heavy things. Using superspeeed constructively. Etc. Using her superpowers effectively. I like her to smile and have fun. I like her to be drawn beautifully. I like "love" to be a central element in the book.

I do not like excessive violence in comics. I don't particularly get any thrill or joy over watching WW kill people, get into fights, or portrayed as the "ultimate warrior." Quite frankly that sort of thing bores me.

However, if others like that and it sells books. Fine. I am not starting any petitions to get Azzarello canned.

At 50 years of age, I am quite content to buy the occasional statue, enjoy the occasional appearance of the classic character, enjoy her portrayed in online comics such as Little League, etc.

Am I buying the current run? No. From what I have seen and heard it is not my cup of tea. Do I dislike "this WW"? No. She is my favorite character of all time and I will still be a fan long after many of the current readers have left. But as a fan of the "current WW," I have no need to read stories where the central tenant seems to be how much abuse and bad stuff can we heap on this character.

It may seem odd, but I actually like to see positive things happen to characters I love. :)
Unfortunately, today's writers don't seem to think that positive stories are "interesting."

But thats ok, in the meantime I can just keep hunting for a loose Lego WW figure. :)

[Reginleif]

Well that is because, in normal everyday parlance, that is called false advertising.
DC and its creators know that readers and fans are listening to them in advance of purchasing their books. When they talk, they are in effect hyping their goods. They aren't just misleading fans. They are misleading customers.

To them it may seem harmless fun at the expense of fanboys (and girls), but what they are in effect doing alienating the very people who allow them to get paid for telling 28 page stories about people who dress in colorful underwear.

Woah! Is it just me or are some of these conversations reflecting the atmosphere of the Starwars base after the prequels? DC/Azzarello is intentionally changing WW just to spite her fan base. DC/Azzarello lies to its consumers and intentionally misleads them. DC/Azzarello raped my childhood. Azzarello is the anti-Christ...

Im just calling for a return to some grounded discussion, that is all.

[Imraith Nimphais]

Truth to tell...I do not agree with Azz's perspective that previously WW and by extension the Amazons have been written as "perfect". At least not by all and sundry writers. Granted, I've not read every single issue by every writer...but it does seem as though the character have had their share of ups and downs according to which writer held the pen.

But that is just his opinion. I can disagree but I can also respect it. As a writer tasked with shepherding this cast of characters forward he would obviously see them in a different light to wot we the readers love, want and expect. Just like I can disagree with but respect those who think/see that Diana is just a guest appearance in her own title. It all comes down to a matter of personal POV.

That's why I try my very best to judge his work solely and specifically on wot he is setting before me and not comparing it to wot came before.

[americanwonder]

In that sense, what would you say was Diana and the Amazon's internal struggle before Azzarello?

Honestly, DarkKnghtJared, I'm not entirely sure what you mean. Lots of ways to address that, I think. But, I'll give it a shot.

First, WW's story isn't really about the Amazons; they're just a backdrop. It's about her coming here: good ol' fashioned Earth. As such, "internal struggle" for the Amazons isn't the focus and not really needed. Many a good story has, and still could be, told without the slightest mention, if any, of the Amazons individually or collectively.

Second, watch Thor. Good movie in my book. A boy becomes a man. Now, give the primary characters a sex change. Asgardians become Amazons. And a girl becomes a woman. Standing out from mom's shadow. Leaves the pretty (and secluded) palace and comes to our world (where there is lots of dirt). Helping to save us. Opening our eyes to great wonders. Even grows to love a man. It's not a perfect comparion, I know, but it's not that much of a stretch, is it?

In the a preview for Exiled, the Journey into Mystery section states: "In a floating city high above Earth's surface, the Asgardians are living gods who seek to inspire the very best in humanity."
http://www.comicbookresources.com/pr...pid=12207&pg=1

Couldn't something very similar be said of Paradise Island? Yet, do people seem to push against the idea of Asgard half as much as they seem to push against Paradise Island? Why can't Paradise Island be treated more like Asgard?

Some other examples of drama/struggle:

- Jimenez kills Hippolyta. In the aftermath, Diana questions her faith. I particularly love the scene where Diana is praying in the ruins of the temple of Artemis. "WHY WON'T YOU ANSWER ME?!" That's some emotionaly charged drama, right? I think so. Very personal, very powerful. A scene I think many can relate to.

- Diana snaps a neck (and the cry from Australia is loud and long). Diana isn't out to kill; that isn't what she wants. But she isn't given a lot of options either. It's a lose-lose situation with a lot on the line. Does she find the perfect answer? Nope. She chooses what she sees as the lesser of two bad options. And has to face some serious consequences for it. Lots of conflict, no perfect answers.

She disobeys mom to join the contest. She fights Batman because she's got a murderer under her protection. She frees the man that raped her mother. She lets a raging GL work out his anger issues on her face because she believes in the goodness of his heart. She blinds herself and later goes on to blindly follow her faith in Athena, later only asking that a young boy, caught in the crossfire, be allowed to return home. She even gets dumped by the man she thought she could have a family with.

That's some good storytelling (with struggle, too), in my book.

Here, I want to be clear: I'm not asking for perfect Amazons. I'm not asking for no change nor no struggle. I think there are ways to improve their depiction and worth to the stories being told. I do not think dredging up the worst dirt for a shallow, one dimensional portrayal of the whole society is that answer.

[Reginleif]

I do not like excessive violence in comics. I don't particularly get any thrill or joy over watching WW kill people, get into fights, or portrayed as the "ultimate warrior." Quite frankly that sort of thing bores me.

I agree, but I do not see any of this in Azz's WW. She killed a centaur, but it was to save someone, and centaurs dont have rights...

[americanwonder]

I like seeing WW doing superpowered feats. Flying. Lifting large heavy things. Using superspeeed constructively. Etc. Using her superpowers effectively. I like her to smile and have fun. I like her to be drawn beautifully. I like "love" to be a central element in the book.

If you haven't already, check out Ben C's art thread. I particularly like one of the new ones with Diana flying.

[SteveGus]

so do you like any element of Azz's work?

I don't entirely mind her being the daughter of Zeus. But mostly, the only way it seems an improvement is when compared to JMS/Hester or Flashpoint. That stuff was badly written dreck written by people who didn't get Wonder Woman, either, and all of it fortunately was designed to go away on its own terms. I can intellectually see how a person who enjoys stories like this might find it clever and suspenseful.

As to the run itself, I have nothing but high regard for Chiang. He's got a gift for faces like Maguire, and would probably excel on something comedic that gives occasion for a wider variety of expressions.

[americanwonder]

I cant really explain how WW was "perfect".

Probably because she wasn't perfect.

I don't agree with all your opinions here, but this was a fun, well thoughtout post to read, Dr. Hurt. I also really liked your Disney Hercules/Tangled post.