Azzarello and Chiang at Chicago Con-- Spoilers--?

[americanwonder]

Well, perhaps there's not a hive mind but seems the treatment of the Amazons is the constant. So, dunno if that qualifies as a hive mind but it seems to remove the Amazons in some fashion makes the title unenjoyable for some. All saying the same thing and having the same reactions but not a hive mind... okay. People complaining cannot seem to imagine Wonder Woman being enjoyable without the Amazons. They keep repeating it so how am I wrong if I actually believe them? Or did I misread something and people don't mind what's happened with the Amazons and this is some type of allusion to some other issue they are just labeling "the Amazons"?

We're not all saying the same thing. You can keep saying that, but it isn't true. And it doesn't make your agrument sound any stronger. You just look like you're tilting at strawmen. For example, saying I don't like the depiction of the Amazons is not the same as saying I think WW is an incomplete hero. You made that argument up. And yes, I can imagine WW being enjoyable without the Amazons. Still doesn't mean I like what they've done with the Amazons thus far.

Those that like it aren't a hive-mind, right? You are each individuals and have your own opinion, no? Same for those of us with complaints.

[Maximum Impact]

Perhaps as well as transitioning to a television reporter then back to a newspaper reporter. Again, if you can imagine how it might or might not work with one character, then why doesn't anyone see it a problem if another character has absolutes that cannot change? Does this not suggest there's weakness there but then now I'm reading that people aren't saying the Amazons are necessary?

You're really equating Clark's job -which is still a journalist by the way- with the removal of his city and supporting cast? Really?

[Fate's Faith]

The Amazons are Wonder Woman's Army and necessary for a warrior princess.

Thank you! I don't know why when I pointed this out before there was all this backtracking.

[Fate's Faith]

You're really equating Clark's job -which is still a journalist by the way- with the removal of his city and supporting cast? Really?

I guess I am. Isn't this where you get insulting?

[Maximum Impact]

Thank you! I don't know why when I pointed this out before there was all this backtracking.

That should show you we don't have a hive mind.

[Maximum Impact]

I guess I am. Isn't this where you get insulting?

Why would I do that? You're entitled to your opinion regardless of if I disagree with it or not.

[Fate's Faith]

We're not all saying the same thing.

See, I think you believe that but then you all are. Its just a pattern I've noticed. Really, can you imagine Wonder Woman enjoyable without the Amazons? Really? Just saying there seems to be an awful lot of focus to her supporting cast instead of Wonder Woman herself.

[americanwonder]

Well, no, I wouldn't, because that wasn't even a response to you--it was a response to Gael, ...

First, if I read your post incorrectly, distorting your intent in my reply, then I apologize for such.

Second, yes, I know your response was to Gaelforce; but I got the impression from your response, particularly using the word "trite," that the statement was about something I'd said earlier. Did I read that wrong?

... if it's been the standard, oft-repeated portrayal, then one could as easily argue that it is trite as argue that absent or violent Amazons are trite...

Sure, that arguement can be made. I'd disagree, of course. ;) Perhaps it's better to say that storylines of 'absent and violent Amazons' feel trite to me, in large part, because it's been used several times in the last decade or so. We haven't seen near as much in the way of noble Amazons in recent past, so that, to me, would feel more fresh. Further, as I said before, I can get stories of man-hating Amazons in numerous sources outside of WW. I can't get near as much in the way of noble Amazons.

Originality, when it comes to use of old myths, consists of using them in original ways and combiing them with different material. So, yes, the argument is that using them in and with WW is relatively original. The idea of siren-like women seducing sailors is not original; the idea of Wonder Woman finding out that she apparently comes from such women is.

I get what you're saying here. For the story being told, Azzarello does combine various elements very well. And I don't think I've read a story where Hephaestus took in the male Amazon children; a new idea that fits him well.

I'm sure the story wouldn't feel as over-done to me if this were my first WW story. It's somewhat unfair to hold previous stories against it, but hard not to when we've gone through so many 'take the Amazons away' type of stories in the last 10 yrs or so. I like spaghetti, but I don't want it five nights a week - may not be entirely fair to the next chef cooking up a nice plate, but there's a lot more than just spaghetti for possibilities, so it gets a bit frustrating.

[americanwonder]

See, I think you believe that but then you all are...

Saying it again and again isn't going to make it more true.

Really, can you imagine Wonder Woman enjoyable without the Amazons? Really?

Yes, I can. Really.

Just saying there seems to be an awful lot of focus to her supporting cast instead of Wonder Woman herself.

I like the Amazons(sometimes?); I don't like the depiction/use of them thus far. Hence, I discuss/complain.

I don't have as much to say about Diana. No big complaints. No big "WOW"s either. If you want to discuss Diana, feel free; I do enjoy reading what others like about a comic often even when I don't like that comic.

Here's a topic idea for Diana: Now that we've seen that Diana is prone to giving away other people's stuff without asking them, who here would let her borrow your stuff? ;)

[Gaelforce]

See, I think you believe that but then you all are. Its just a pattern I've noticed. Really, can you imagine Wonder Woman enjoyable without the Amazons? Really? Just saying there seems to be an awful lot of focus to her supporting cast instead of Wonder Woman herself.

I, for one, have said quite specifically that there are things I do like and things I do not like about the title.

I have never said that the Amazons are necessary for her to be a hero, nor have I ever said I hated the book/the run/the creators. Just because I don't like how her supporting cast been handled doesn't mean I don't like how Diana acts/reacts.

A comic book is about more than just the title character. There is the supporting cast, the setting, the history, etc. I like how the gods are being portrayed and I like Diana's personality. On the other hand, I don't like how the supporting cast seems to drive the plot more than Diana, nor am I crazy about the 'ensemble cast' feeling of the title.

I like Zola, I like the idea of London, and I like the overall storyline, but I don't like the change to her origin or the change to the Amazons.

Others like and dislike other aspects of the book. Some dislike the book in its entirety. For some, the dislikes outweigh the likes.

For me, right now, they're in balance, so I'll keep reading. I don't think the Amazons define Diana, but I do think they are a critical part of the book and her history/origin. I can appreciate how and why some people like the change, but it doesn't appeal to me. I liked the fact that this is a hero who gave up an idyllic life in order to do good in the world - it was a very different approach that set her apart from other heroes.

I'm not against change and evolution, but I am getting tired of retcons and reboots, especially when we're promised that this isn't a reboot and there won't be any changes to her origin.

[americanwonder]

That should show you we don't have a hive mind.

Hive-mind says you are out of order thinking for yourself! ;)

[SteveGus]

Well, perhaps there's not a hive mind but seems the treatment of the Amazons is the constant. So, dunno if that qualifies as a hive mind but it seems to remove the Amazons in some fashion makes the title unenjoyable for some.

One thing that makes Wonder Woman unique among other superheroes is that she comes from a nurturing and non-tragic environment. Anything that tries to darken or insert tragedy into that environment spoils the basic concept of the character.

[Wulfmir]

One thing that makes Wonder Woman unique among other superheroes is that she comes from a nurturing and non-tragic environment. Anything that tries to darken or insert tragedy into that environment spoils the basic concept of the character.

But aren't all the Amazons came from a tragic environment? Or do you just follow each and every contrived reason why they're on their little pony island.

[Wulfmir]

I, for one, have said quite specifically that there are things I do like and things I do not like about the title.

And how many are you? I've seen people here thumb down a run out of spite, with completely no basis at all.

[Gaelforce]

And how many are you? I've seen people here thumb down a run out of spite, with completely no basis at all.

Well, I started with "I, for one," so I'd say...one :)

And yes, ever since there were bulletin boards there have been people who thumb down runs out of spite. They don't like a writer. They don't like the artist. They don't like a supporting cast member. They got up on the wrong side of the bed ;)

This is why I speak for myself as I hate being lumped in with a 'hive mind.'

However, in this particular thread, everyone I've seen who dislikes the book or some aspect of the book has a reasonable explanation. Folks may disagree with them, which is not only their right but the glory of message board threads throughout history, but it doesn't invalidate their reasons.

None of the reasons I've seen cited are factually incorrect (I may have missed some). None of them are 'personal' reasons (i.e. Azzarello's dog has the same name as my ex-girlfriend so I hate anything he does) and none of them are inconsequential, imo. Their reasons may not resonate with you just as the reasons people like the book or aspects of the book may not resonate with them. One man's caviar is another man's icky salty fish eggs :)

It's hard having a discussion when one side doesn't acknowledge the validity of the points of the other side (which I've seen for pro and con) I don't see anyone here, though, who is either thumbing the run up or down with no basis at all.