Azzarello and Chiang at Chicago Con-- Spoilers--?

[slvn]

Now you seem disengenuous. ;)

Not to myself. :) I just think that the specifics of the plot are kind of important to notice if you're going to say it's trite. If you're going to reduce it to "basic tone," then maybe you're being a little reductive--just as if someone were to lump together all Wonder Woman runs with peaceful, advanced-technology, culturally sublime Amazons and say that they all have the same "basic tone" and they're all (after Marston's first issues) trite, that would be reductive.

It's just odd to me when I see people (not necessarily you!) saying both A. #7 was a shocking blow to the legacy of Wonder Woman--the Amazons have been the one constant in Wonder Woman's story for 70 years and now they're gone!, and B. this story is just like many other stories that have already been told about Wonder Woman and her Amazon family. To me, those two premises don't quite go together. While it may be trite in your eyes, I think there must have been something original or surprising, for good or bad, about it in order for it to spark so much discussion. But though for folks who don't like the book, I understand the desire to hit it with every argument they've got.

man-hating, one-note fighters. It's so generic, and public domain, I could make a movie tomorrow about man-hating baby-trading Amazons and DC couldn't stop me.

But this is not a story about man-hating baby-trading Amazons; they're in the background, not the foreground. It's a story about how Wonder Woman, this idealistic and caring hero, discovers that she came from that brutal background, and also from the inhuman and often-cruel gods. Of course when you're doing a story in a mythological world you're probably going to use public domain elements. In a comic about an iconic comic character against a mythological backdrop, it's how you combine and reconfigure and add to these elements that can make your story relatively "fresh."

Moving on, how would you redeem them? Can murderers and baby-sellers be "redeemed"? Do you think the comic audience at large would accept them as good guys later? What would you have them do (one of the biggest problems, imo - good or bad, just sitting around the island isn't all that exciting for long)?

First, as Wonder Woman enters the "atonement" and "return" phase of her journey, we have to get their side of the story. Were they manipulated at all? Is there anything to mitigate their guilt? For example, suppose the first Amazons were all rescued from male violence by Aphrodite, given Paradise Island and made immortal, and charmed by her and taught by her and isolated from all other cultural influences; they might think that that serving her "divine will" was always right. People have become religious zealots with a lot less reason that than. And/or suppose that she drives them mad with lust three times a century, like the Vulcan Pon Far in Star Trek. And/or suppose that they don't personally kill the men by their own hands (for we don't actually see them do it, and Heph doesn't explicitly say they do it) but the men's "lives [are] drained from them" by Aphrodite at the conclusion of the sex rite. And/or suppose that their sons would be doomed, beyond the Amazons control, if they stayed on Paradise Island. Heph and the boys may believe that the Amazons didn't care about them and would have drowned them--but that may turn out not to have been true from the Amazons' perspective. I don't know--I'm just saying we don't know their side of the story yet, and before we can know how they can be redeemed, we have to hear that side. I guess what I'd LIKE to see is some mitigation, but not total mitigation (i.e., absolute mind control); there should be some moral complexity and some real responsibility.

Than, as I've said, I'd like to see them share the island with their sons/brothers, learn from them (and teach them) and start building an exemplary society on a basis of gender equality. And they should realize, with Wonder Woman's guidance, the wrong they have done. And then, some kind of heroic sacrifice or attempted sacrifice will probably be in order. Maybe they could defend their brothers and the world in the midst of the Trinity War, whatever that turns out to be. But no, I don't mean that they should all die and Wonder Woman should be the last Amazon again.

By the way, as far as keeping them busy, I suspect we'll find out that they've been doing something "heroic" all along--since they apparently have needed to regenerate their ranks despite their immortality, they've probably be fighting something and suffering casualties. And Diana in JL's first arc already seemed to know a lot about fighting monsters (how to kill harpies and such). Maybe Paradise Island is still a hellmouth, though you'd think that might have come up by now, with hell being at hand. We'll see.

[slvn]

When that happens, odds are you'll hear less of me. I'll be busy writing my Congresspeople about moral rights and the abuse of national icons

I think you should start with Senator Al Franken's office. I'd love to hear the speech he would give about this vital issue of national importance. Better yet, maybe you could get interviewed about it on a news show--perhaps the Daily Show, or the Colbert Report. You should get DC to pay you, though. The buzz you would generate would be useful PR (all news is good news), and its only fair that you be compensated. Thanks again for your comments about Dial H, by the way; I downloaded it, and it was one of the best comics I've read in a while--right up there with current issues of Wonder Woman.

In another time and place, this may be an all time classic Wonder Woman story. As a Wonder Woman fan, I don't want to see the character getting kicked to the curb in the rebooted universe. That's where this story seems to be leading.

Rather than getting kicked to the curb, I have a feeling Wonder Woman and her world will be very visible in Trinity Wars. Maybe Diana will get back the guns of Eros and have a showdown with Pandora, who also packs two mystic guns. Diana, in a way, is probably the anti-Pandora--the woman who comes from the same world of Greek mythology, but to fight and contain the troubles that Pandora unleashed. At the same time, she may feel a family obligation to help Pandora, if Zeus is the one who got Pandora in trouble in the first place.

[Gaelforce]

A. #7 was a shocking blow to the legacy of Wonder Woman--the Amazons have been the one constant in Wonder Woman's story for 70 years and now they're gone!, and B. this story is just like many other stories that have already been told about Wonder Woman and her Amazon family.

To me, these two are both true statements.

A. The Amazons have (with the exception of the stupidity of AA) always been shown to be a noble, advanced and enlightened society of, essentially, warrior-poets. #7 shows them as barbarous murdering 'sex pirates.' That's what 'spits on the legacy.'

B. Writers have repeatedly throughout the history of WW taken it upon themselves to remove the Amazons from WW's story. They've been exiled to another dimension and repeatedly slaughtered.

So in one fell swoop, Azzarello has 'desecrated' the legacy of the Amazons while repeating the 'let's get rid of them' meme that so often pops up in the book and which strikes a lot of older readers and unoriginal and repetitive.

[slvn]

To me, these two are both true statements.

A. The Amazons have (with the exception of the stupidity of AA) always been shown to be a noble, advanced and enlightened society of, essentially, warrior-poets. #7 shows them as barbarous murdering 'sex pirates.' That's what 'spits on the legacy.'

B. Writers have repeatedly throughout the history of WW taken it upon themselves to remove the Amazons from WW's story. They've been exiled to another dimension and repeatedly slaughtered.

So in one fell swoop, Azzarello has 'desecrated' the legacy of the Amazons while repeating the 'let's get rid of them' meme that so often pops up in the book and which strikes a lot of older readers and unoriginal and repetitive.

I see. I do agree that the mere fact of getting rid of the Amazons isn't the original part, and I understand that many long-time fans, especially those w, are tired of it--probably, in most cases, because they never liked that meme in the first place

Of course, since the Amazons have "always been shown to be a noble, advanced and enlightened society of, essentially, warrior-poets," one could argue that continuing to show them that way would be trite. I'm not making that argument, but I think it would follow basically the same logic as saying that any way of "getting rid" of them is necessarily trite. I would say that there are original ways to get rid of (or demystify) the Amazons and there are original ways to have them be noble, enlightened, etc.

Having Wonder Woman apparently come from Amazons more like those of Greek myth still seems original to me--and the idea of how such an enlightened hero could come from what seems to be such a brutal background is intriguing. Having Wonder Woman discover this brutal a truth about her family also seems original. Now it would be exciting to see the Amazons progress towards becoming "a noble, advanced and enlightened society," instead of simply always having been that way.

[Gaelforce]

I see. I do agree that the mere fact of getting rid of the Amazons isn't the original part, and I understand that many long-time fans, especially those w, are tired of it--probably, in most cases, because they never liked that meme in the first place

Of course, since the Amazons have "always been shown to be a noble, advanced and enlightened society of, essentially, warrior-poets," one could argue that continuing to show them that way would be trite. I'm not making that argument, but I think it would follow basically the same logic as saying that any way of "getting rid" of them is necessarily trite. I would say that there are original ways to get rid of (or demystify) the Amazons and there are original ways to have them be noble, enlightened, etc.

Having Wonder Woman apparently come from Amazons more like those of Greek myth still seems original to me--and the idea of how such an enlightened hero could come from what seems to be such a brutal background is intriguing. Having Wonder Woman discover this brutal a truth about her family also seems original. Now it would be exciting to see the Amazons progress towards becoming "a noble, advanced and enlightened society," instead of simply always having been that way.

I don't think it's any more trite than Middle-America Ma and Pa Kent, kindly old butler Alfred Pennyworth, etc. Again, speaking for myself as a near 40 year collector, I'm just tired of constant changes to Diana's environment/supporting cast. Unlike Superman (House of El, raised in Smallville by kindly Kents, became a reporter in Metropolis, Daily Planet, Lois Lane, Jimmy Olson, Perry White) or Batman (orphaned son of murdered parents, raised by kindly Butler in stately Wayne manor in Gotham, wealthy playboy, Commissioner Gordon) every single facet of Diana's surroundings has changed. Some say 'because it didn't work' while others like myself believe that that's why it doesn't work - there isn't a stable foundation for this character unlike every other hero in the DCU.

To repeat from other threads - I do not hate the current run. I'm in the middle. There are things I love about it and things I hate about it. I yearn for some stability in the title but every new writer that comes on board feels obligated to change something. I bought into Azzarello's claim that he hadn't changed her origin and felt suckered when it turns out he did. I'm enjoying the story and Diana's personality, but I feel she's lost amid an ensemble cast who dominate the direction she takes. I don't like the Amazon changes at all, but I love the new depictions of the gods.

So...mixed bag for me.

[SteveGus]

Wait, what? Congresspeople? About WW? Am I reading you correctly?

Other countries have laws that protect the moral rights of original creators. Under the Berne Convention, "the author shall have the right to claim authorship of the work and to object to any distortion, mutilation or other modification of, or other derogatory action in relation to the said work."

Azzarello's Wonder Woman is a "distortion", "mutilation", "modification of", and a "derogatory action" with respect to Marston's Wonder Woman. This is indeed something that requires the attention of the US Congress; while the USA, for better or for worse, is a party to the Berne Convention, US laws are less robust in this area with regard to remedies. This is definitely Congress's business.

Or should I take my problem to the United Nations?

[slvn]

Other countries have laws that protect the moral rights of original creators. Under the Berne Convention, "the author shall have the right to claim authorship of the work and to object to any distortion, mutilation or other modification of, or other derogatory action in relation to the said work."

You left out the end of the sentence:"...the said work, which would be prejudicial to his honor or reputation." How does Azzarello's run damage Marston's reputation when it is obvious that Marston did not author it?

For purposes of moral (as opposed to economic) rights, I suspect that Marston's "works" are the comics he wrote, not the characters or ideas derived from those works. In other words, I can see how moral rights could be invoked to stop DC (the copyright holder) from, for example, inserting porn images into a comic authored by Marston and publishing it in his name. But if "works" means not just books but characters and other content that can be derived form the books, then every Wonder Woman comic written by anyone but Marston has entailed a modification of his work. Even if Marston's heirs have legal standing to object, how would the courts decide which modifications were "derogatory" and "prejudicial to [Marston's] honor or reputation[/I]"?

I guess Congress could just say that the author and his or heirs have the moral right to decide which modifications they consider derogatory and which they will permit. But that would take away a lot of the privileges of the economic rights (copyright and trademark) holders. I'm not sure that that would be such a bad thing--I care about authors more than I care about corporations, for sure--but Congress is not going to do it.

Or should I take my problem to the United Nations?

If you do, I don't think the Berne Convention will help you very much. Besides its deference to national laws, Berne says, in Article 7, that "The term of protection granted by this Convention shall be the life of the author and fifty years after his death." Marston died in 1947.

You might have better luck dialing H-E-R-O. Maybe you'd turn into Captain Comic Conservation!

[Fate's Faith]

To me, it isn't a question of whether the Amazons are admirable now or in the future. My whole issue with this story is that it is the first, and excessively long, story in a rebooted DC universe. I can too easily see this leading to the simple removal of the Amazons and Paradise Island from the DC universe, and the removal of Wonder Woman's corner of it. After all, the Amazons are dated and too perfect, and not serious enough. We may "hope" for their restoration, for some kind of response to the accusations; but hope seems a pretty scarce commodity in the nu52.

I don't see that as an unreasonable worry but that's just all it is. Worry. Its not going to be until this initial arc is over before we can even get to a point of dealing with what's happened since it seems to me that they had to be removed temporarily because in the past they have always come as a package deal with Wonder Woman. Now its solely up to her. To me its strange that we can have the trinity of Superman, Batman and Wonder Woman but Wonder Woman requires a whole island to be a 'complete' hero.

In another time and place, this may be an all time classic Wonder Woman story. As a Wonder Woman fan, I don't want to see the character getting kicked to the curb in the rebooted universe. That's where this story seems to be leading.

Well, to me she's taking centerstage. No understudies. If she fails, she fails alone. If she wins, she wins alone. I don't see that as anything but building the character to be stronger. To florish no matter what setting she's in.

[americanwonder]

... To me its strange that we can have the trinity of Superman, Batman and Wonder Woman but Wonder Woman requires a whole island to be a 'complete' hero.

I don't understand this. I don't think she needs the Amazons to be a complete hero (that seems really odd); Hal doesn't need the entire GL corps to be complete, does he? Besides, Bruce has an entire army of 12 yr olds patroling Gotham for him. ;)

... Well, to me she's taking centerstage. No understudies. If she fails, she fails alone. If she wins, she wins alone. I don't see that as anything but building the character to be stronger. To florish no matter what setting she's in.

All alone? You mean besides the stray-dog side-kicks she's picked up along the way? ;) She hasn't done much of anything alone, has she?

[Fate's Faith]

lol. Glad you are enjoying. What else are you reading (if I may be snoopy)?

I'm enjoying Batgirl (go Babs!), catching up on some Batman, and need to finish Terry Moore's Echo.

I'm picking up all 52 and it seems for the foreseeable future. I've wanted to cut down but I haven't been reading for years and so much seems new and fresh to me. Completely understand its not to others. The Batman family of titles have been really fun to me. I love the whole lot. I have always been a fan of Superman so I've enjoyed those titles but Action Comics is really really nice. I find most of the Dark titles to be great reads with the Edge titles perhaps being where I'd cut first if that ever happens. The relaunch really rekindled my love of comics and since I just returned from a period when I didn't have so much love for them, its been one of best experiences I've had with them. So when I tell people to stop reading what they dislike and just find new things to enjoy, its really because I've been through it and it remains one of the best decision I ever made. Life is so much more enjoyable when you stop focusing on what's so miserable about it.

[Dr. Hurt]

I don't understand this. I don't think she needs the Amazons to be a complete hero (that seems really odd); Hal doesn't need the entire GL corps to be complete, does he? Besides, Bruce has an entire army of 12 yr olds patroling Gotham for him. ;)

You best be joking.

[americanwonder]

I see. I do agree that the mere fact of getting rid of the Amazons isn't the original part, and I understand that many long-time fans, especially those w, are tired of it--probably, in most cases, because they never liked that meme in the first place.

...but I think it would follow basically the same logic as saying that any way of "getting rid" of them is necessarily trite. I would say that there are original ways to get rid of (or demystify) the Amazons and there are original ways to have them be noble, enlightened, etc.

You wouldn't be distorting what I said again, would you? 'Cause I don't recall saying "any way of getting rid of them is necessarily trite." ;) As Gaelforce pointed out, "getting rid" of them has been done a lot of late: Jimenez, Simonson, Rucka, Picoult, Simone, JMS. It's standard tradtion for WW, more faithful than Ol' Faithful or New Year. You're right that Azzarello put in some new details, but it's a very common meme in WW since 2000 or so. I'm starting to think that Diana gets cut off from the Amazons more often than the X-mansion gets destroyed.

...Of course, since the Amazons have "always been shown to be a noble, advanced and enlightened society of, essentially, warrior-poets," one could argue that continuing to show them that way would be trite...

When's the last time they were actually shown to be "a noble, advanced and enlightened society of, essentially, warrior-poets?"

...Having Wonder Woman apparently come from Amazons more like those of Greek myth still seems original to me...

I don't understand your thinking here. Borrowing old myths, told in numerous sources for years and years, is "original"? I can see an arguement for "more original to WW." But they're not original. I can read generic man-hating Amazons in countless sources. How many sources outside of WW have done something akin to Marston's Amazons, the "noble, advanced and enlightened society of, essentially, warrior-poets"? I really don't see a strong case for using the Greek myth version as being more "original"?

... Now it would be exciting to see the Amazons progress towards becoming "a noble, advanced and enlightened society," instead of simply always having been that way.

They weren't "always" that way. Unlike Azzarello's Amazon women - that when cut off from men, never advance beyond the archaic and barbaric for 3000 years - Marston and Perez' Amazons actually learned a thing or two.

[americanwonder]

You best be joking.

Or what? ;)

What am I joking about?

[Fate's Faith]

I don't understand this. I don't think she needs the Amazons to be a complete hero (that seems really odd); Hal doesn't need the entire GL corps to be complete, does he? Besides, Bruce has an entire army of 12 yr olds patroling Gotham for him. ;)

Actually, I would turn that around and say isn't that what you and other have been complaining about? That the tampering with, corrupting and removal of the Amazons has damaged Wonder Woman? Correct me if I'm wrong but haven't all of you stated this changes Diana in some fashion? That without those elements, you can't enjoy Wonder Woman and she really ceases to be Wonder Woman. If all that is true, then the character has required an whole island to be a complete hero. Take away the Corps and we know Green Lantern remains a hero. Take away his foster parents and we know Superman remains a hero. Take away his supporting cast and we know Batman remains a hero. But take away the Amazons and Wonder Woman is done. That seems to me that she's holding that trinity status for being a woman since she's not actually heroic... just good at networking.

Just stating the facts back so you can see exactly how these complaints are being heard

[Gaelforce]

I don't think she needs the Amazons to be a 'complete hero.'

However, to me, Themyscira/Paradise Island/Amazons are to Wonder Woman as Metropolis/Daily Planet Crew is to Superman and Gotham/GCPD/Gordon are to Batman. They don't make those two 'complete heroes', but they are a constant (with the exception of temporary plotlines) and critical part of their environments.