Azzarello and Chiang at Chicago Con-- Spoilers--?

[Zagreus]

That actually sounds quite interesting. I wasn't sure I was going to pick it up, but I think you've sold me on it. Thanks!

Now THAT is funny!

[Auguste Dupin]

Before we even see a female Amazon in this run, we get man-hatred from them. The very first panel. I think Azzarelo's statements are pretty clear: a) Amazon women are dirty and b) Diana ain't too bright. Lots of room for growth, should make Slvn happy. ;)



I get your point about fighting for their queen; I like that moment, too. But I still feel that if all you show is fighting, it's a very simplistic portrayal. It's not as if they are shown fighting for anyone who isn't an Amazon. 300 had more depth. Feel free to disagree.



Oh, no worries.



Didn't you say you found their scene "heartwarming"? The Amazon women are portrayed as man-haters from the very first words out of their mouths, before we even see them. That's their defining characteristic so far. In contrast, do the men show any hatred towards women because of their mothers? They may not be a utopia (good point, btw), but are they killing anyone? Any human trafficing? Being a craftsman is honorable work; being a murderer and baby trader is not. One group (men) may not be "ideal;" but it is being used here to showcase the dirty, backwards ways of they other (women).

Here's a thought: would this scene work as well, would they seem as sympathetic, if the men were spewing hatred towards all women?



a) I can see an arguement being made for the "passive worker" thing. But then, Diana (and Lennox) are shown to not be the brightest, so do we really want to take their word for it? She's not shown to be the most insightful. ;)

b) They don't wait to be told to help Hephaustus. They immediately ask for his release and explain why. There is need to bargain or fight or do anything more because Diana is instantly defeated by them with only a handful of words.

-See, the interesting thing is, I never saw the Amazons as "dirty". They're a warrior tribe that got cut off from the rest of the World 3 000 years ago and that leave in a unisex society. As for the "X ain't too bright", honestly, brightness and depiction of brightness is so subjective that I can't see how an argument can be made about it. How could we consider her as "dumb" when we believed the same thing she did when we were introduced to us? You guessed the guys weren't oppressed slaves? I didn't. Considering that, I would be an hyppocrite if I thought of her as "stupid" because she came to the same conclusions I did.

- 300 is a finite graphic novel which actually has a lot more depth than most people give him credit for, or at least could bring up some debate (while still being this overly brutal battle story). Not a good comparaison. As for the "not fighting for a non Amazon", that's my point. They probably wouldn't on their own. They're a closed communauty, which lived on isolationism for thousands of years. Of course they won't. As for the non fighting at all, they fight when attacked, not a moment before.We see them in relation to combat because they are put in a condition where combat is needed. They are warriors, yet only raid people for reproduction, instead of raiding for money and power. They do evil, but only once every 33 years. The rest of the time, they just leave away from the world. They're fighters but not conquerors, and that's a contradiction, that's some form of complexity. We also saw them behave in some sort of daily life. Yes, we learn that even then, fighting is an important part of their culture, but that doesn't make it simplistic. Viking have a society based on fightings (raiding ships, settling some conflicts by duels...).It doesn't make them simplistic.Barbaric by our standards, yes. But not simplistic. They are many ways and many reasons for fighting: to protect, to attack, to play.... Behaviors leading to fighting can be complex, or at least can show some interesting view into the one doing it, and that's what we have here.

-Thanks. We have our disagrements , but you are comprehensive, and I appreciate.

- "Heartwarming" doesn't mean we should look up to these guys. Being a craftman is honorable, but it's nothing "inspiring". They don't show hate towards women, but they don't show love either. As I said earlier, we don't know much of these guys, except that they let some one else decide of their life. Amazons didn't kill anyone, didn't seel any babies before issue 7. That's why I'm saying the comparaison is unfair. You are comparing 3 issues to less than half of one. Azzarelo clearly doesn't consider these guys worthy of our attention( at least for now), something he wouldn't do if he had some sort of subliminal sexist message towards the Amazons. They are not "perfect". I mean, what, if they don't become baby killers in the first 5 pages we see them, they're some perfect society created to highlight the dirtyness of the Amazons? No. They're kids raised by a craftman who became craftmen. Amazons are kids raised as warriors to become warriors. Where's the sex argument?
As for the scene thing, no, it wouldn't because it wouldn't be the same scene anymore. But the Amazons had their heartwarming scene too, and they gained my sympathy. And lost some of it afterwards, but that's what's called "complexity": the same person isn't just sympathetic all the time, or horrible all the time. What they inspire the reader depends on the situation.

- a) Diana thought they were robots and we didn't pay attention to them until one of them died. They were elements in the background. Passivity. The same way Diana thougt they were robots, we thought they were irrelevent to the scene.
b) Because that's all they could do. Look at their face, at the look in their eyes. They know they can't do anything but beg for Diana to release him.

[SteveGus]

Comicbook characters go out of print because they aren't selling, obviously Dial H wasn't selling as it was (last I remember seeing it it involved the carrier being dead and somehow involving Batman) or it would have been better presented than that. What you are basically suggesting that non-print was better than a darker take and potentially better sales all in the name of nostalgia? ...actually this sounds familiar...

If nothing else, I think it shows that DC is becoming monotonously solemn, dark. With only a handful of exceptions, what isn't xtreeeemly violent is filled with horror themes.

(But over yonder, they got Wolverine fighting Captain America! How kewl is that?!)

For most of the 25 years I've been regularly reading comics, I've always been mostly DC over Marvel. DC was the company with the bright and optimistic characters and the bright and optimistic worldview. I can no longer rely on them to produce what I came for.

[Fate's Faith]

This week, DC tried to update the Silver Age character Dial H for Hero. I leafed through it briefly this Wednesday and put it back on the shelf.

There's an easy solution. I don't know why it keeps needing to be repeated but if the Silver Age is what you are looking for, stop buying comics published in 2012. That era is gone. Long gone. Long over. Way past. If that's what you're looking for then you don't have to look any more. That age is done. You can pick up the beginning and enjoy it all to heck but at some point you will reach the end. Its just like your teenage years. Enjoy them, cherish the memories but you are never going to be a teenager again. Why continually long for something that is never going to pass? I like the Silver Age too and sometimes I go back are read some Silver Age stories. I would not now or ever pay $2.99 each month for a Silver Age like title today. But luckily you can if you wish, they're probably somewhere in the backissue bins. Enjoy what you like and stop wishing for something you don't like to be something its not. How hard is that anyways?

[SteveGus]

But luckily you can if you wish, they're probably somewhere in the backissue bins. Enjoy what you like and stop wishing for something you don't like to be something its not. How hard is that anyways?

In Wonder Woman's case, it's because I care about the character, her heritage, and her seventy year history, and shall continue to complain until it's set right. And yes, I am buying less and less DC that's not a reprint.

[americanwonder]

-Thanks. We have our disagrements , but you are comprehensive, and I appreciate.

Thanks, Auguste. I may not agree with you on "dirt" or "passive" and such, but you do make strong, well-thoughout points. A worthy foe in the arena.

So, how does our valiant heroine get out of this one? Will love save the day? Will allies have her back or sell her out? Will Zeus ever show up and declare, "I am this baby's daddy!" Wonder fans want to know!

[americanwonder]

In Wonder Woman's case, it's because I care about the character, her heritage, and her seventy year history, and shall continue to complain until it's set right. And yes, I am buying less and less DC that's not a reprint.

YAY! Like you, if I'm not a happy WW fan, I'm not a happy DC fan. And I spend much less when I'm not happy.

[Fate's Faith]

In Wonder Woman's case, it's because I care about the character, her heritage, and her seventy year history, and shall continue to complain until it's set right. And yes, I am buying less and less DC that's not a reprint.

Not to worry, I'm picking up the slack for both of you People don't seem to remember back when I whined about the quality of DC over the past ten years. Oh, yeah. I forgot, I actually found something else I did enjoy and concentrated on that. Its the best of both worlds to me, I get new stories and can enjoy past stories I haven't read. Really find it... um, delightful... to see someone spend energy on something they will never influence and eventually will outlive them in either case. You do realize that hate not only leads to the dark side but also causes wrinkles and shortens life spans. Hate and long tanning sessions I believe. Just saying.

Or maybe its lack of sleep...

[Imraith Nimphais]

Lack of sleep is the main culprit. But...when you add deep-seeded negativity and tanning sessions (long or short, it does not matter)...well, you are on your way to an early grave.

[slvn]

Not sure I'd even say that as a story it's flawed. For what it is, it is well-crafted.

OK.Sorry if I misinterpreted you.

It not only is repeating DC's Amazons Attack and Flashpoint WW

I don't recall reading Wonder Woman discovering in those series that she was Zeus's daughter, that her people had a thrice-centennial custom of "sexual piracy," that they abandoned their sons, that the sons were raised by Hephaestus. The Amazons in those stories didn't seem like sailors' legends, and an apparent return to the Amazons of myth--and so, whether that seeming "return" is good or bad as a starting point, it appears to be more or less a first in WW's history. I don't remember ever seeing Wonder Woman so thoroughly disillusioned about her family. If it was all so repetitive, I'm surprised so many people were surprised by #7. I don't know if "fresh" is the word for all this, but I would hardly call it repetitious, and I think it's an interesting situation for Wonder Woman to have to deal with. The mere idea of violent Amazons is of course not new, but if they were a utopian society, that wouldn't exactly be fresh either, by that standard you're applying--it would be a repetition of Marston, Kanigher, Perez, etc. etc.

This question seems to assume that "shock and bewilderment" is necessary for a good WW story; I'd disagree with that.

No--just that shock and bewilderment were useful to this story in launching WW's hero's journey and in engaging readers in discussion and speculation and criticism. I'm not arguing about what a good WW story has to be; I'm arguing that, in my view, this particular WW story is good so far.

Could one tell a story of the Amazons' bewildering virtue? I'm sure one could. That's just not this story right now. If that's the story you want, I want I understand. But I think that the story being told nowis intriguing and well-told so far; I'm not going to fault it for not being some other story.

Ah, comics - such serious business. "How dare you kids want to touch my comics!" ;)

Nah. If DC wants to do an all-ages Wonder Woman in addition to this one, I think that would be great! Even if they want to do it instead of this one, I'd have no real objection. I'd miss this one and I might or might not buy the all-ages on, but I certainly don't feel entitled to any particular version of the character. However, right now, DC is marketing this as a T-rated book, and there's no particular reason to think that everything in it should be tailored for kids.

Sure, Diana is the most heroic and most "normal" to us.

Yes, she's normative in that she's the character who represents an ideal to which to aspire. And therefore the comic doesn't reinforce the stereotype that powerful, independent women are manhaters, no matter how many Amazons seem to conform to that stereotype. They don't represent an ideal; she does.

Because there are just too many good portrayals of women in comics these days. AWAY WITH YOU WOMEN! ;)

The point is, as far as I can see, to strip away everything familiar and reassuring and let Wonder Woman respond heroically. To me, that sounds like a good, dramatic place to start a story--one which I hope will eventually lead to, among other things, the redemption of the Amazons. (You'll probably say that that's not Wonder Woman's story; but Wonder Woman doesn't have just one story. This is the Wonder Woman story that's being told now, and in my view, its being told well.) I understand and respect that you want the Amazons to be admirable right now; I'm just saying I'm OK with a different way of starting the story though I'd like the Amazons to be admirable in the long run. Again, I think delayed gratification can be a good thing in storytelling--but that's just my taste. I do judge each issue, but not in terms of whether the characters and their status quo is what I want it to be right now; I judge it in terms of whether it looks like its building an interesting story or not. (Maybe you do too--I'm just sayign what I do, not building a contrast.) I'm not saying there's anything wrong with being impatient or critical or deciding not to by the comic--it's each reader's call.

[Fate's Faith]

No--just that shock and bewilderment were useful to this story in launching WW's hero's journey and in engaging readers in discussion and speculation and criticism. I'm not arguing about what a good WW story has to be; I'm arguing that, in my view, this particular WW story is good so far.

I think that's where the crux of these disagreements come from. Some seem to be approaching the story we've gotten so far on the pretense of what a good Wonder Woman story is. After all, they've read many stories over the years and why shouldn't they be the judge on what should and shouldn't happen? I would imagine, if this was a story set in one of previous runs of Wonder Woman, Zola would be taken to Paradise Island to stay with the Amazons along with Diana or Diana would venture out to bargain for her safety and since the gods then were much more reasonable, she would be successful. However this story has given Diana sole responsibility for Zola and no refugee to leave her in safety because the gods can and have reached everywhere. There's danger all around and those she might have trusted before she can no longer trust. Even her mother, who she might have settled her differences with, isn't able to aid her in this trial. She's had to form a small band she can put some trust in but even there is the possibility of betrayal. Everything around her has been stripped away even her own history. And if she is successful, then it was done solely on her own determination and strength of character. A very good Wonder Woman story to me.

[SteveGus]

The point is, as far as I can see, to strip away everything familiar and reassuring and let Wonder Woman respond heroically. To me, that sounds like a good, dramatic place to start a story--one which I hope will eventually lead to, among other things, the redemption of the Amazons. (You'll probably say that that's not Wonder Woman's story; but Wonder Woman doesn't have just one story. This is the Wonder Woman story that's being told now, and in my view, its being told well.)

To me, it isn't a question of whether the Amazons are admirable now or in the future. My whole issue with this story is that it is the first, and excessively long, story in a rebooted DC universe. I can too easily see this leading to the simple removal of the Amazons and Paradise Island from the DC universe, and the removal of Wonder Woman's corner of it. After all, the Amazons are dated and too perfect, and not serious enough. We may "hope" for their restoration, for some kind of response to the accusations; but hope seems a pretty scarce commodity in the nu52.

When that happens, odds are you'll hear less of me. I'll be busy writing my Congresspeople about moral rights and the abuse of national icons, seeking to get in touch with the Marston estate, buying a share of Time-Warner so I can put forth a stockholder resolution, and so forth.

I think that's where the crux of these disagreements come from. Some seem to be approaching the story we've gotten so far on the pretense of what a good Wonder Woman story is.

In another time and place, this may be an all time classic Wonder Woman story. As a Wonder Woman fan, I don't want to see the character getting kicked to the curb in the rebooted universe. That's where this story seems to be leading.

[americanwonder]

OK.Sorry if I misinterpreted you.

No worries.

I don't recall reading Wonder Woman discovering in those series that she was Zeus's daughter, that her people had a thrice-centennial custom of "sexual piracy," that they abandoned their sons, that the sons were raised by Hephaestus. The Amazons in those stories didn't seem like sailors' legends, and an apparent return to the Amazons of myth--and so, whether that seeming "return" is good or bad as a starting point, it appears to be more or less a first in WW's history. I don't remember ever seeing Wonder Woman so thoroughly disillusioned about her family. If it was all so repetitive, I'm surprised so many people were surprised by #7. I don't know if "fresh" is the word for all this, but I would hardly call it repetitious, and I think it's an interesting situation for Wonder Woman to have to deal with. The mere idea of violent Amazons is of course not new, but if they were a utopian society, that wouldn't exactly be fresh either, by that standard you're applying--it would be a repetition of Marston, Kanigher, Perez, etc. etc.

And just like that you're back to misinterpreting me again. I never said all the stories were identical in every way. Now you seem disengenuous. ;)

DC's Amazons from AA to Flashpoint to Azzarello are in the same basic tone: man-hating, one-note fighters. It's so generic, and public domain, I could make a movie tomorrow about man-hating baby-trading Amazons and DC couldn't stop me.

But the story needed to cut her off, strip everything away? Like that's anything new? DC's Amazons have taken away her "princess" title. Her home has been trashed how many times? Even Hera kicked it across the globe. The Amazons left her all alone at the end of Infinite Crisis just to come back, attack DC, disappear, to come back in time for Diana to renounce them, they arrested here, anothe big attack on the island, hugs for all, she turns a corner and Paradise is retroactively destroyed, killing her mom and most of the Amazons again. Hippolyta died another time in there somewhere. So, the next big story is "cut her off from the Amazons"? Really? That's most of what she's done the last ten years. It may be told to your liking, it may just be the most well-crafted and thorough trashing she's had. But these aren't new car fresh scent ideas at work here.

Demi-god, you say? Yeah that's freshly borrowed from Herc, and Clash of the Titans, and even Percy Jackson. All popular "What? My daddy is a god, why didn't you tell me, mommy!" stories. If movies for Herc, Clash of the Titans, Percy Jackson, and Azzarello's WW are all playing, is WW really going to look fresh and stand out (for something other than the stars on her butt)? Again, while it wouldn't be an exact adaptation, enough of the basics are so generic and public domain that I can make a movie about a princess born of the gods, battling Hades for the throne, etc, and WB couldn't stop me.

Utopian? There's lots and lots of room to work with between what we have now and "utopia."

So, no, I wasn't really "shocked" by it - it was an "OH ####, here we go again."

I'm glad you and others are really enjoying the ride. Honest. Also, I'm not trying to take away anyone's enjoyment. I'm expressing my own frustration, in large part, because I believe in the characters, the concepts, their potential and think it could have been so much better (for me ). Venting, dicsussing, contesting in our Arena Forum of Wonder Thought also helps me process it. I enjoy seeing the views, and especially the enjoyment, that you and others see. :)

Moving on, how would you redeem them? Can murderers and baby-sellers be "redeemed"? Do you think the comic audience at large would accept them as good guys later? What would you have them do (one of the biggest problems, imo - good or bad, just sitting around the island isn't all that exciting for long)?

[americanwonder]

When that happens, odds are you'll hear less of me. I'll be busy writing my Congresspeople about moral rights and the abuse of national icons, seeking to get in touch with the Marston estate, buying a share of Time-Warner so I can put forth a stockholder resolution, and so forth.

Wait, what? Congresspeople? About WW? Am I reading you correctly?

I do like the TW stock idea (if you have the money). I also heard something about postcards once. I'm all for voting with your wallet. Voice your well thoughout complaints here, youtube, in letters to DCE (go above DiDio, I say), even petitions. I'd even think about picketing at DC's offices in NY if I lived anywhere close to NY. All friendly, of course. But, I'd suggest holding off on the Congress idea for now, I think they might have a few bigger matters to look into.

[americanwonder]

Not to worry, I'm picking up the slack for both of you

lol. Glad you are enjoying. What else are you reading (if I may be snoopy)?

I'm enjoying Batgirl (go Babs!), catching up on some Batman, and need to finish Terry Moore's Echo.