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  1. #166
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    Quote Originally Posted by BeccaBlast View Post
    I think, given the actual depictions of Mala's charges in the book, that there is no way your ideal expression would have fit in the panel, but it's very clear what the Amazons did with Paula and her former slaves.
    Oh, I'm not saying my words would have been the best way to put it. But Wonder Woman's words mean that being "slaves" isn't necessarily a bad thing, depending on the gender and character and ethical character of the master. Maybe it's just a semantic issue; after all, to me the girls seem to become something more like Mala's student's than her slaves. But it's got to mean something that Marston chooses to have her use the word "slaves." If he simply meant "It's fine for girls to need guidance," or something like that, he could have had WW say that; he chose to say it's ok for girls to want to be "slaves." Did Marston see the girls' "slavery" as necessarily only transitional, or would he have been fine with the idea that many of them would continue to be slaves ad never learn to think for themselves or to make any free choice other than choosing to be slaves? Did he think permanent slavery to an enlightened mistress was OK? It seems to be that he probably did--just as he seemed to think that being enslaved to any man would be bad, while enslavement to women was bad only if they were bad women. I'm not mad at him for any of that; I don't agree with him about everything, but I think he had an interesting perspective.

    Did Diana misjudge the relationship -- or simply decide that this was not the time or place to have this fight? I certainly didn't see anything indicating she had done anything more than press on with what had brought her there in the first place -- certainly nothing along the lines of "I obviously misunderstood what was going on here."
    Interesting. To me, she seems to have misjudged at least in assuming that her brothers would want to be "liberated." She seems pretty surprised when they say ask her to free Hephaestus and when they say that he saved them and helped them become artists. I got the impression (primarily from what she said at the end of Heph's story) that she thought Heph was only interested in them as slave labor, and I also thought that their solicitude for him helped support the not doesn't really have any way to refute it, and the fight visibly goes out of her. She can;t even say what she's feeling at that point. So can we agree that she at least judged prematurely?

    Again, I don't blame her; I like that she had a strong impulse to liberate her brothers, even though it turned out that they didn't want (and possibly didn't need) to be liberated.
    Last edited by slvn; 05-02-2012 at 06:18 PM.

  2. #167
    Junior Member Sk8maven's Avatar
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    SteveGus - It's not Vertigo, it's Wildstorm. DC has Wildstorm-ized the DCU. Everything from now on is going to be as dark, grim, ultra-violent and ultra-bloody as they think they can get away with. I KNEW they were going to do this when they forcibly merged the DC and Wildstorm universes. And I should have known it would contaminate EVERYTHING.

    This WILL NOT STOP unless the fans revolt and stop buying - but they won't, will they? The kind of fans DC has left are the kind that LOOOOOVES them some ultra-violence, and they will demand more and more and more until there are too few fans left to support the company. That's what did in the Theatre du Grand Guignol - its fanbase got overly jaded and went away.
    Last edited by Sk8maven; 05-02-2012 at 04:49 PM.
    Everything I state is JUST MY OPINION. Take what you like and leave the rest.

  3. #168
    They LAUGHED at my theory SteveGus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sk8maven View Post
    SteveGus - It's not Vertigo, it's Wildstorm. DC has Wildstorm-ized the DCU. Everything from now on is going to be as dark, grim, ultra-violent and ultra-bloody as they think they can get away with. I KNEW they were going to do this when they forcibly merged the DC and Wildstorm universes. And I should have known it would contaminate EVERYTHING.
    An interesting hypothesis. So Jim Lee is to blame? I know something of Vertigo - read some books, tried to read more - but my knowledge of Wildstorm is pretty much confined to the issues of Gen13 that Gary Frank drew.
    Superhero comic books only become art to the extent that their banal, unrealistic fantasy and garish styles go too far and become interesting. Attempts to ground them in reality can only ruin them.

  4. #169
    Veteran Member Fate's Faith's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by slvn View Post
    Yes, please. That would be awesome. Dionysus vs. Hal Jordan or Roy Harper might be even better.

    Do note that the big mystery figure at the end of Flashpoint, the beginning of the New 52, and the much heralded FCBD comic is none other than Pandora. Yes, the "first woman" of Greek mythology is about to get heavily involved in the mythos of the Justice League and the whole DCU. And Captain Marvel, powered largely by or in the names of Greek gods and heroes, is getting started again in a JL backup that is said to have big implications for the main JL title and the whole DCU. And one of Wonder Woman's sisters is adventuring with the medieval Demon Knights, whose doings could have big repercussions for the DCU as a whole. Are these not opportunities to show how ingrained Wonder Woman's families are into the whole DCU?
    I certainly think so. If you were asking Part of the issue will be the fact they are gods and aren't someone they can just lock up in Arkham. They can tend to be rather powerful given which one you are dealing with but those that we've seen have been some of the major players.

  5. #170
    Veteran Member Fate's Faith's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sk8maven View Post
    This WILL NOT STOP unless the fans revolt and stop buying - but they won't, will they? The kind of fans DC has left are the kind that LOOOOOVES them some ultra-violence, and they will demand more and more and more until there are too few fans left to support the company. That's what did in the Theatre du Grand Guignol - its fanbase got overly jaded and went away.
    You know, there was a time period before the relaunch. A good twenty years. Hate to break it to you but your sales suck. I wouldn't want to target anything to you either.

  6. #171
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    Quote Originally Posted by americanwonder View Post
    Superman definately moped about during his crisis of confidence. But he also showed he was intelligent and clearly in charge of his own plan.
    Didn't he create a machine capable of causing mass disappearances, and then cause himself to forget it existed? And didn't it then fall into the wrong hands and get used against his adopted planet and his beloved? I wouldn't say he was entirely in charge of his own plan.

    No. Hera only shows any interest in Zola after she becomes preggers. It's not just anyone.
    I think you missed my point. Zola didn't know she had been with Zeus. If Zola could wake up one day and find out that she had been impregnated by the King of the gods and earned the wrath of the Queen, how can anyone in her world know that they haven't bumped shoulders (or other body parts) with the wrong gods?

    And were Apollo's oracles regulars at Olympian family reunions before he decided to pick them up and use them up? Was Ares responsible for the blood that was shed around him in Somalia, and, if so, wasn't that the blood of people who, as far as they knew, had nothing to do with Olympians.

    The creepy thing about the gods is that they walk among us, and we don;t even know they're there. Hey, for all I know, Hades is a lurker on this board, and I've offended him by
    Last edited by slvn; 05-02-2012 at 07:39 PM.

  7. #172
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    Quote Originally Posted by BeccaBlast View Post
    they actually don't say what they consider themselves....
    There's an interesting duality in a lot of the discussion about Hephaestus -- the whole idea of him being a master craftsman surrounded by apprentices isn't really supported by any dialogue or art
    They say the following:

    "You are making a horrible mistake. We owe the smith our lives. If it wasn’t for him, we would have been thrown in the tide, to drown unloved. …He wanted us, and he raised us. Here, we are artists….And we are happy.... Please, release the master.”

    So, they do say something about what they consider themselves: they say they consider themselves "artists," and they say they consider themselves "happy." In that they are apparently artists who were raised by and continue to work with "the Smith," it seems reasonable to call them his apprentices, which seems like a pretty good reason for them to call him "the master." (After all, isn't "the Smith" a master craftsman pretty much by definition?)

    Could it turn out that they have some kind of Stockholm syndrome? Sure. But so far, they're saying that they're happy artists, and that Heph "raised" them and saved them for being "unloved." To note that this is what they say is not wish fulfillment; it's on the page.
    You can't argue that he could be an unreliable narrator to justify the "Amazons as murderous sirens" sequence and then turn around and say that the concept of him having slaves is analogous to the Marston "loving submission".
    To say anything about "the concept of him having slaves," I'd have to assume he has slaves, which I don't. Also, I don't assume that he made up what he says about the Amazons---I think it's probably true as far as it goes, but it could be incomplete. He may not even know the Amazons' side of the story. If he does know, he may not choose to share it all; for example, maybe Aphrodite is ultimately to blame, and maybe he doesn't want to say so because he still has feelings for her. That he may have earned the love and submission of his apprentices (if such they are) doesn't mean he's necessarily going to be completely upfront with Wonder Woman; I doubt that the recipient of "loving submission" has to be morally perfect in Azzarello's world. I'm not saying that Azzarello's version of loving submission would be exactly the same as Marston's; I'm just saying that I think he's invoking Marston, in a general sense, by depicting individuals who serve someone for whom they express deep gratitude (and may feel love) and who suggest that they have been empowered (by becoming artists, in this case) as a result of their submission.
    Last edited by slvn; 05-02-2012 at 11:16 PM.

  8. #173

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    Quote Originally Posted by Auguste Dupin View Post
    -Of course , all of this is speculation. It's also very plausible he is saying the truth, and he may have really saved them...
    All very true, Auguste.

    Quote Originally Posted by Auguste Dupin View Post
    ... and how the story is not impliying there is more than meet the eye...
    I'm not so sure on this though. This is the issue where Eros says, "looks can be deceiving" just as they enter the forge. And Hephaetus, himself, says the gods "don't care about anyone but themselves." Is he only speaking about all the other gods?

    note: I'm just using this line from your reply to Becca to show why I can't help but speculate sometimes. Azzarello has me all paranoid.

    Quote Originally Posted by Auguste Dupin View Post
    As for the despictions of said brothers, considering they had two pages of speaking time (by Azzarelo, no less) I actually find them to be hearthwarming. Simplistic? maybe, but two pages.
    I get that it's only 2 pages, and the story isn't complete. But this "heartwarming," and, dare I say, a little too "perfect" depiction for all the men is set in stark contrast to the backwards and barbaric depiction of all the women. That's why I don't like it.

    (note: I don't want to see the gender roles reversed here either. I more depth than "we're all good, they're all bad.")
    Last edited by americanwonder; 05-02-2012 at 10:01 PM.
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  9. #174

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    First, I've enjoyed yours and Becca's post/discussion on "slaves." Kudos to you both. I find the concept of "loving submission" very interesting, but have to admit, that even using the term "slave" makes me uneasy.

    Quote Originally Posted by slvn View Post
    Didn't he create a machine capable of causing mass disappearances, and then cause himself to forget it existed? And didn't it then fall into the wrong hands and get used against his adopted planet and his beloved? I wouldn't say he was entirely in charge of his own plan.
    lol. Hey, I never said the plan was perfect. Actually, I was mainly referring to how he delt with things after the disappearence. It's not like he was just following someone else's plan to save the day, right? Not waiting for someone to show him the way? And inventing the machine (as well as the adjustments he made later) does show a high level of intelligence. What has Diana done thus far that compares?

    Quote Originally Posted by slvn View Post
    I think you missed my point. Zola didn't know she had been with Zeus. If Zola could wake up one day and find out that she had been impregnated by the King of the gods and earned the wrath of the Queen, how can anyone in her world know that they haven't bumped shoulders (or other body parts) with the wrong gods?

    And were Apollo's oracles regulars at Olympian family reunions before he decided to pick them up and use them up? Was Ares responsible for the blood that was shed around him in Somalia, and, if so, wasn't that the blood of people who, as far as they knew, had nothing to do with Olympians.

    The creepy thing about the gods is that they walk among us, and we don;t even know they're there. Hey, for all I know, Hades is a lurker on this board, and I've offended him by
    I get that on the individual level there's an atmosphere that the gods are among us and we might not know. And it's very well-crafted in that sense. But something as big as a battle for heaven's throne should be massive, no? The fate of the whole world should hang in the balance, right? But I don't get that vibe here. Then again, both Poseidon and Hades seemed to quickly walk away, so maybe they aren't really that ambitious anyway?

    As for Ares, I'm very uncomfortable trying to pass off something like the atrocities in Darfur, even in fiction. We humans are very capable of great evil all on our own. That's our responsiblity; we, as a global society, need to own it. So, I'm hoping the story doesn't go with a cop-out version of 'the devil made me do it' in dealing with real-life, human-made disasters. Unless Ares was just there observing, I think it was a mistake to use real life in a case like this.
    Last edited by americanwonder; 05-02-2012 at 10:03 PM.
    "... Act, that each tomorrow find us farther than today."
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  10. #175
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    Quote Originally Posted by americanwonder View Post
    First, I've enjoyed yours and Becca's post/discussion on "slaves." Kudos to you both. I find the concept of "loving submission" very interesting, but have to admit, that even using the term "slave" makes me uneasy.
    Thanks, And yeah, the term slave makes me uneasy too. I would not want to sound like I am suggesting that there's a "loving" kind of enslavement. I like that Azz's Wonder Woman is appalled by the very idea of slavery, no matter who the master is.

    lol. Hey, I never said the plan was perfect. Actually, I was mainly referring to how he delt with things after the disappearence. It's not like he was just following someone else's plan to save the day, right? Not waiting for someone to show him the way? And inventing the machine (as well as the adjustments he made later) does show a high level of intelligence. What has Diana done thus far that compares?
    Nothing--but then again, she also hasn't made massive numbers of people disappear. To me, the one whose actions make him an apparent menace to humanity seems more "torn down" than the one who follows others plans--but it's in the eye of the beholder, I guess.


    I get that on the individual level there's an atmosphere that the gods are among us and we might not know. But something as big as a battle for heaven's throne should be massive, no? The fate of the whole world should hang in the balance, right? But I don't get that vibe here. Then again, both Poseidon and Hades seemed to quickly walk away, so maybe they aren't really that ambitious anyway?
    The gods work in mysterious ways. Lennox seemed to expect a massive fight that would imperil humanity, but it hasn't materialized yet. I wouldn't be surprised if Apollo's attempt on the throne has more of a cosmic feel, though. In horror, I think it's often at the individual feel that the most suspense and fear is generated for readers, anyway.

    As for Ares, I'm very uncomfortable trying to pass off something like the atrocities in Darfur, even in fiction.
    I read Ares as possibly responsible for some of teh carnage immediately around him--not for all the problems of Darfur.

    We humans are very capable of great evil all on our own. That's our responsiblity; we, as a global society, need to own it.
    That's very true. I like, though, that Ares suggests that the gods are what mortals make them. So even if Ares is doing some instigating at some level in Darfur, he's doing it because the warlike hearts of humans have made him what he is. Thus, we don't get off the hook either way,

  11. #176

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    Quote Originally Posted by slvn View Post
    Nothing--but then again, she also hasn't made massive numbers of people disappear. To me, the one whose actions make him an apparent menace to humanity seems more "torn down" than the one who follows others plans--but it's in the eye of the beholder, I guess.
    Superman didn't make anyone disappear. Someone else, using what Superman created, made people disappear. I'm not a believer that Superman is responsible for how others misuse what he created. His plan didn't go according to plan, but I think it's a stretch of misplaced blame to say that Superman is the menace to humanity.

    Quote Originally Posted by slvn View Post
    ... I wouldn't be surprised if Apollo's attempt on the throne has more of a cosmic feel, though...
    Hope so. This aspect of the story is starting to drag, not unlike "For Tomorrow."

    Quote Originally Posted by slvn View Post
    ... In horror, I think it's often at the individual feel that the most suspense and fear is generated for readers, anyway.
    I like that Azzarello has kept much of the story well grounded and personal. A horror story or not, this is still superheroes and a clash of gods should feel epic at some point, no? Strife's arrival among the Amazons was epic - but that doesn't translate over to the rest of the world. There wasn't even a real sense of danger for the good folks of London. That's were I feel it's lacking. There's no feeling of "OMG, if she doesn't stop Hades from taking over the whole world is doomed." Instead, it's little more than a family feud on an episode of Real Housewives of Olympus.

    Quote Originally Posted by slvn View Post
    I read Ares as possibly responsible for some of teh carnage immediately around him--not for all the problems of Darfur.
    I can see Ares joining in. But that doesn't do much to make him feel like a world-wide threat to humanity. I want him to feel akin to Darkseid.

    Quote Originally Posted by slvn View Post
    ... So even if Ares is doing some instigating at some level in Darfur, he's doing it because the warlike hearts of humans have made him what he is. Thus, we don't get off the hook either way,
    Yes, that was a good line/moment. Ares seems confident that he's already won.
    Last edited by americanwonder; 05-02-2012 at 10:32 PM.
    "... Act, that each tomorrow find us farther than today."
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  12. #177
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    Quote Originally Posted by americanwonder View Post
    Superman didn't make anyone disappear. Someone else, using what Superman created, made people disappear. I'm not a believer that Superman is responsible for how others misuse what he created. His plan didn't go according to plan, but I think it's a stretch of misplaced blame to say that Superman is the menace to humanity.
    Yeah, I may have stretched that point a little . :) Still, creating a potential doomsday device, making himself forget about it and letting it fall into the wrong heads is a pretty dangerous thing to do, and to me, even that its more unbecoming of a hero than anything WW has done in this run

  13. #178
    Inf‚me et fier de l'Ítre Auguste Dupin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by americanwonder View Post
    All very true, Auguste.



    I'm not so sure on this though. This is the issue where Eros says, "looks can be deceiving" just as they enter the forge. And Hephaetus, himself, says the gods "don't care about anyone but themselves." Is he only speaking about all the other gods?

    note: I'm just using this line from your reply to Becca to show why I can't help but speculate sometimes. Azzarello has me all paranoid.



    I get that it's only 2 pages, and the story isn't complete. But this "heartwarming," and, dare I say, a little too "perfect" depiction for all the men is set in stark contrast to the backwards and barbaric depiction of all the women. That's why I don't like it.

    (note: I don't want to see the gender roles reversed here either. I more depth than "we're all good, they're all bad.")
    -Happy to see we agree on something.

    -Maybe, but I'm not sure it's really pointing out at the slaves. Maybe Hephaesteus has some skeletons in his closet, though. But it could also be argued that he saved the kids because he "cares only about himself". If you think about it, he saved them because he related to them on a personnal level (him almost having be killed by his mom). Would he have cared if they were killed by something else? Maybe not.

    -I never saw them as "perfect". They're submissive, which is, well... Thing is, perfection, and even most male perfection, isn't generally portrayed like that. To me, they're heartwarming because they show affection towards the "Master", but that's it. The same way I would consider the Amazons being ready to die fighting Hera to protect their Queen to be an heartwarming moment, even after (and before) all they did. Because, despite all the things they've said and done, they genuily care about Hyppolita. The "slaves" are too passive to be perfect.
    "I'm going to paraphrase Nietzsche, when you judge a work, the work judges you."

  14. #179
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    Yeah--I really want to see the male and female Amazons living on hte island together and influencing each other.

  15. #180

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    Quote Originally Posted by Auguste Dupin View Post
    -Happy to see we agree on something.
    Well, if you would just agree with me more often...

    Quote Originally Posted by Auguste Dupin View Post
    -Maybe, but I'm not sure it's really pointing out at the slaves. Maybe Hephaesteus has some skeletons in his closet, though. But it could also be argued that he saved the kids because he "cares only about himself". If you think about it, he saved them because he related to them on a personnal level (him almost having be killed by his mom). Would he have cared if they were killed by something else? Maybe not.
    Yeah, the male Amazons fit with Haphaestus, both outcasts, apparently not wanted by their mothers.

    Quote Originally Posted by Auguste Dupin View Post
    -I never saw them as "perfect". They're submissive, which is, well... Thing is, perfection, and even most male perfection, isn't generally portrayed like that. To me, they're heartwarming because they show affection towards the "Master", but that's it. The same way I would consider the Amazons being ready to die fighting Hera to protect their Queen to be an heartwarming moment, even after (and before) all they did. Because, despite all the things they've said and done, they genuily care about Hyppolita. The "slaves" are too passive to be perfect.
    I use the word "perfect" because that's the word Azzarello used to describe what he didn't like about the female Amazons, saying they needed more dirt. But there's no dirt here for the men. They're craftsmen happily working for a god. They care about Hephaestus and he saved them. It's too clean, especially given Azzarello's statements. And it stands in dark contrast to just how much dirt he's thrown on the female Amazons. Men are all noble craftsmen and women are all backwards butchers? Blech! It's a terrible depiction in it's hyper-simplicity.

    Quote Originally Posted by slvn View Post
    Yeah--I really want to see the male and female Amazons living on hte island together and influencing each other.
    Given the depiction we have thus far, I have a hard time seeing how this can go well.

    This book has become far too male-centric (so far?).
    "... Act, that each tomorrow find us farther than today."
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