Azzarello and Chiang at Chicago Con-- Spoilers--?

[slvn]

She hasn't done much of anything alone, has she?

I didn't think she had much help against the centaurs in 1 and 5 or against the monster in 7 (since Heph has ineffective). She's the one who decides to take Hermes and Zola to Paradise Iland (and whatever we think of that decision, it's all hers--Hermes says she shouldhave left him begind.) In 7, Lennox was basically just along for the ride when she tried to lead an insurrection against Heph. In 8, she takes minimal help with her to Hades--only Hermes, since it's impossible to go there without him. In the end, she is the one makes the decision, for whatever reason, to give the guns to Hades, and is the one she pays the price for Zola's freedom. And she tells Hermes to take Zola and go (and I suspect that that was because she was protecting Zola, not because she's "in love"--but we'll see).

[americanwonder]

Not to myself. :)

Ha - Nice. :)

... But though for folks who don't like the book, I understand the desire to hit it with every argument they've got.

This is a two way street. We've seen all kinds from the Pro-PR-Defense-Taks-Force as well. In fact, if I didn't know any better, I'd almost assume that your statement here was an attempt to simply dismiss any and all criticism, pretending that we're just throwing stuff to throw stuff. ;)

... But this is not a story about man-hating baby-trading Amazons; they're in the background, not the foreground...

Well, as long as they aren't in the foreground, then man-hatin' baby-tradin' is a-okay! ;) I know they're in the background; the background is part of the story. In this case, it's a part I don't like.

... First, as Wonder Woman enters the "atonement" and "return" phase of her journey, we have to get their side of the story...

Many interesting thoughts here. Some I share. Some I don't - your Aphrodite seems a bit much, but it would fit in well with Azzarello's disfunctional family reunion story.

[SteveGus]

I don't think she needs the Amazons to be a 'complete hero.'

However, to me, Themyscira/Paradise Island/Amazons are to Wonder Woman as Metropolis/Daily Planet Crew is to Superman and Gotham/GCPD/Gordon are to Batman. They don't make those two 'complete heroes', but they are a constant (with the exception of temporary plotlines) and critical part of their environments.

This, exactly. Azzarello's changes have basically erased Wonder Woman's corner of the DC universe, without replacing it. This is also why I see zero 'world building' in this book. These Gods can't be her only or even her chief villains, and so far they are the only villains.

[americanwonder]

Actually, I would turn that around and say isn't that what you and other have been complaining about? ... But take away the Amazons and Wonder Woman is done...

Check your facts. You may be stating what you think you see, but you're not stating facts. For one, all us "complainers" don't have a singular hive-mind. I've never once said that WW is not a hero without the Amazons. Superman doesn't need the Kents to be alive to be a hero, but I still don't want the Kents to be shown as racist bigots before Zod stomps on them. Likewise, I'm not a fan of how Azzarello has chosen to portray the Amazons. But that doesn't make Diana an incomplete hero.

... That seems to me that she's holding that trinity status for being a woman since she's not actually heroic... just good at networking...

The Trinity is a very easy concept. Three main characters made it intack from the Golden to the Silver Age of comics: Superman (and Superboy), Batman, and WW.

[americanwonder]

I didn't think she had much help against the centaurs in 1 and 5 or against the monster in 7 (since Heph has ineffective). She's the one who decides to take Hermes and Zola to Paradise Iland (and whatever we think of that decision, it's all hers--Hermes says she shouldhave left him begind.) In 7, Lennox was basically just along for the ride when she tried to lead an insurrection against Heph. In 8, she takes minimal help with her to Hades--only Hermes, since it's impossible to go there without him. In the end, she is the one makes the decision, for whatever reason, to give the guns to Hades, and is the one she pays the price for Zola's freedom. And she tells Hermes to take Zola and go (and I suspect that that was because she was protecting Zola, not because she's "in love"--but we'll see).

- Ah, the centaurs. Highly ineffective, these two.
- Give Heph some credit, he did keep the creature busy.
- Lennox actually went looking for Diana in 7, and we don't know how much he helped to tie-up Heph
- Minimal help is not alone

But she did think of going home and giving away someone else's toys all on her own. Not the most accomplished hero around, I'd say. ;)


(note: I'm just giving you a hard time please don't take it seriously )

[slvn]

You wouldn't be distorting what I said again, would you? 'Cause I don't recall saying "any way of getting rid of them is necessarily trite." ;)

Well, no, I wouldn't, because that wasn't even a response to you--it was a response to Gael, preceded by a quote from her. And it was, I thought, a friendly response to her thoughtful message; I agreed with her that getting rid of the Amazons was not original, but I implied that Azz's way of getting rid of them (and of focusing on their flaws) might be original.

When's the last time they were actually shown to be "a noble, advanced and enlightened society of, essentially, warrior-poets?"

Ask Gael--she's the one who said "The Amazons have (with the exception of the stupidity of AA) always been shown to be a noble, advanced and enlightened society of, essentially, warrior-poets." I'm not sure why it really matters when the last time was--if it's been the standard, oft-repeated portrayal, then one could as easily argue that it is trite as argue that absent or violent Amazons are trite. But I'm not arguing either--I think there are original ways of showing the noble warrior poets, just as there are original ways of showing--well, you get the idea. Incidentally, one of the original ways of showing the noble warrior poets would be letting us see the Amazons and their brothers evolve into that kind of society, which is what I'm hoping will happen.

I don't understand your thinking here. Borrowing old myths, told in numerous sources for years and years, is "original"? I can see an arguement for "more original to WW."

Originality, when it comes to use of old myths, consists of using them in original ways and combiing them with different material. So, yes, the argument is that using them in and with WW is relatively original. The idea of siren-like women seducing sailors is not original; the idea of Wonder Woman finding out that she apparently comes from such women is.

How many sources outside of WW have done something akin to Marston's Amazons,

Oh, it was very original seventy years ago, when Marston did it. But Wonder Woman coming from warrior-poet amazons isn't original now--unless one comes up with an original way to have it happen.

They weren't always that way

But they were almost always that way "on camera," so to speak. Their Advanced Warrior Poet classes, so to speak, were sometime deep in the mists of the past. Having comics where they evolve into that role would be pretty new, as far as I know. That hasn't happened yet, but now it could. It's a new possibility.

[slvn]

(note: I'm just giving you a hard time please don't take it seriously )

Oh, don't worry--I don't take those attempted rebuttals seriously at all!

[Dr. Hurt]

Or what? ;)

What am I joking about?

About the Robins. But i'm kind of sleep deprived at the moment so maybe you're right, maybe you're wrong. I cant tell.

LOLOL.

[Fate's Faith]

I don't think she needs the Amazons to be a 'complete hero.'

However, to me, Themyscira/Paradise Island/Amazons are to Wonder Woman as Metropolis/Daily Planet Crew is to Superman and Gotham/GCPD/Gordon are to Batman. They don't make those two 'complete heroes', but they are a constant (with the exception of temporary plotlines) and critical part of their environments.

I would disagree. While we are used to them operating in those places, they aren't critical to them. We could move both to New York City and they would still remain pretty much the same. You could completely replace their supporting cast and still their heroic status remains. We've even seen this with Superman when you consider his Superboy stories involve a different city with a different cast of characters. In the 70s, Batman often went outside of Gotham in his adventures showing he's not completely reliable on that particular city. The number of Elseworld done with both alone. I'm saying the idea seems to be that this is and has been true for two of the trinity but not for one. What's wrong with her being what makes the Amazons special? Not the Amazons that make her special.

[Maximum Impact]

I would disagree. While we are used to them operating in those places, they aren't critical to them. We could move both to New York City and they would still remain pretty much the same. You could completely replace their supporting cast and still their heroic status remains. We've even seen this with Superman when you consider his Superboy stories involve a different city with a different cast of characters. In the 70s, Batman often went outside of Gotham in his adventures showing he's not completely reliable on that particular city. The number of Elseworld done with both alone. I'm saying the idea seems to be that this is and has been true for two of the trinity but not for one. What's wrong with her being what makes the Amazons special? Not the Amazons that make her special.

lolz What's funny is the idea of Superman in New York City with a new supporting cast and how that would go over.

[americanwonder]

Oh, don't worry--I don't take those attempted rebuttals seriously at all!

lol. Best thing you've said!

[Fate's Faith]

Check your facts. You may be stating what you think you see, but you're not stating facts. For one, all us "complainers" don't have a singular hive-mind. I've never once said that WW is not a hero without the Amazons. Superman doesn't need the Kents to be alive to be a hero, but I still don't want the Kents to be shown as racist bigots before Zod stomps on them. Likewise, I'm not a fan of how Azzarello has chosen to portray the Amazons. But that doesn't make Diana an incomplete hero.

Well, perhaps there's not a hive mind but seems the treatment of the Amazons is the constant. So, dunno if that qualifies as a hive mind but it seems to remove the Amazons in some fashion makes the title unenjoyable for some. All saying the same thing and having the same reactions but not a hive mind... okay. People complaining cannot seem to imagine Wonder Woman being enjoyable without the Amazons. They keep repeating it so how am I wrong if I actually believe them? Or did I misread something and people don't mind what's happened with the Amazons and this is some type of allusion to some other issue they are just labeling "the Amazons"?

[americanwonder]

About the Robins. But i'm kind of sleep deprived at the moment so maybe you're right, maybe you're wrong. I cant tell.

LOLOL.

Me wrong? Blashphemy! I may have slightly exaggerated though.

Now, get some sleep.

[Fate's Faith]

lolz What's funny is the idea of Superman in New York City with a new supporting cast and how that would go over.

Perhaps as well as transitioning to a television reporter then back to a newspaper reporter. Again, if you can imagine how it might or might not work with one character, then why doesn't anyone see it a problem if another character has absolutes that cannot change? Does this not suggest there's weakness there but then now I'm reading that people aren't saying the Amazons are necessary?

[Maximum Impact]

Well, perhaps there's not a hive mind but seems the treatment of the Amazons is the constant. So, dunno if that qualifies as a hive mind but it seems to remove the Amazons in some fashion makes the title unenjoyable for some. All saying the same thing and having the same reactions but not a hive mind... okay. People complaining cannot seem to imagine Wonder Woman being enjoyable without the Amazons. They keep repeating it so how am I wrong if I actually believe them? Or did I misread something and people don't mind what's happened with the Amazons and this is some type of allusion to some other issue they are just labeling "the Amazons"?

The Amazons are Wonder Woman's Army and necessary for a warrior princess.