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  1. #16
    Roll up the PARTITION plz Imraith Nimphais's Avatar
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    Cliff Chiang is sexy.
    Sun and Moon
    Ororo Munroe...God's own X-MAN
    Storm deserves her very own solo ongoing...unfortunately..."Limited minds place limits on everything but their own foolishness." (aja_c.)

  2. #17
    Veteran Member Dr. Hurt's Avatar
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    About Strife, i dont want her as a patron. Strife is... strife. She's a troll, she wouldnt help anyone for the greater good.

    That said, i think she has a human side too. She looks like she needs a hug and that she was trying to be friends with Diana in her own way. I think it's an interesting dynamic and i hope she sticks around so she and Diana can be uneasy sisters.

  3. #18
    Senior Member Seant's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by slvn View Post
    The question they're responding to mentions Artemis along with Aphrodite and Athena, and they don't dispute that she's one of the patrons, so I think it's her.
    Thanks, I didn't catch that. Azzerello mumbles a lot.

  4. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dr. Hurt View Post
    About Strife, i dont want her as a patron. Strife is... strife. She's a troll, she wouldnt help anyone for the greater good.

    That said, i think she has a human side too. She looks like she needs a hug and that she was trying to be friends with Diana in her own way. I think it's an interesting dynamic and i hope she sticks around so she and Diana can be uneasy sisters.
    Oh, I don't think it would be have been for the greater good--it would have probably been because she saw an opportunity to use Wonder Woman to create strife somewhere down the road.

    I do agree that she has a human side, though. I kind of think she wants to make friends, but she has a kind of cosmic compulsion to cause strife. Split happens.

  5. #20
    Veteran Member Fate's Faith's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gaelforce View Post
    I think I'm just tired of hearing 'she was this perfect person from a perfect society' line. She wasn't perfect (as has been pointed out over and over and over again over the past decade worth of comics) and Themyscira wasn't perfect (it was a gate to Tartarus, there was the Circle, they were a bit on the xenophobic side ;) )
    Well, you can be tired of it but if that's the preconception of people then doesn't that prove that something did not click? At some point, the preconcieved notion becomes the accepted viewpoint unless addressed.

  6. #21
    CBR Mod/WW Section Mom Gaelforce's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fate's Faith View Post
    Well, you can be tired of it but if that's the preconception of people then doesn't that prove that something did not click? At some point, the preconcieved notion becomes the accepted viewpoint unless addressed.
    See, that's just it - there's this preconceived notion by people who mostly don't read the book.

    How in the world can they possibly see the truth of the matter when they aren't even reading?
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  7. #22
    They LAUGHED at my theory SteveGus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fate's Faith View Post
    Well, you can be tired of it but if that's the preconception of people then doesn't that prove that something did not click? At some point, the preconcieved notion becomes the accepted viewpoint unless addressed.
    You make an excellent point. On the other hand, this also suggests that you aren't going to change this just by writing a Wonder Woman comic, either. My impression is that this run relies less on its own story and more on simple Schadenfreude: "Look at the horrible things we're doing to Wonder Woman!"
    Superhero comic books only become art to the extent that their banal, unrealistic fantasy and garish styles go too far and become interesting. Attempts to ground them in reality can only ruin them.

  8. #23

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    It's a little known scientific fact that misperceptions can indeed be addressed without pretending that said misperceptions are indeed true. Everyone should try it for themselves if they don't believe me. ;)
    "... Act, that each tomorrow find us farther than today."
    - Longfellow

  9. #24

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gaelforce View Post
    See, that's just it - there's this preconceived notion by people who mostly don't read the book.

    How in the world can they possibly see the truth of the matter when they aren't even reading?
    I agree with this post entirely. I say this as someone who loves the current run and has read some (not all) past runs. I do agree that sometimes her stories don't measure up to her iconic status. Are all of her stories flat? Not at all. I've read enjoyable Wonder Woman stories. I often wonder where people get the idea of her supposed faults, unless they are just quoting what a few industry writers have said about her.

    I also don't understand why people love to obsess over her "issues". Some people love going on and on about the supposed plethora of reasons why Wonder Woman doesn't completely "work". Again, I notice many of these people barely read her book before the reboot. Heck, some people still have the conversation despite her title's current critical and sales acclaim.

    Despite the controversies with Azzarello, I admire the hell out of him for one thing. In an interview, he was asked the typical question, "So, is there anything wrong with Wonder Woman? Anything that needs to be fixed?"

    Brian tersely responded with,

    "No. There is nothing wrong with Wonder Woman."

    I can't help but admire the guy for that. Even some diehard fans and writers/artists who love her can't simply say that.

    I agree with him as well!
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  10. #25

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    I remember that interview, and like you, MuhollandDriver, I loved that statement!
    "... Act, that each tomorrow find us farther than today."
    - Longfellow

  11. #26
    Needs more lesbian RandomFalls's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gaelforce View Post
    See, that's just it - there's this preconceived notion by people who mostly don't read the book.

    How in the world can they possibly see the truth of the matter when they aren't even reading?
    The problem is they wre never going to read the book because of their preconceived notions and then, of course, they would never discover that they were wrong. It's an unfortunate cycle, and I'm glad that Azzarello has sort or broken it. I just wish he hadn't **** all over the Amazons to do it.

    And on a possibly bright side, perhaps some of the aforementioned new fans might now look into back issues of WW and find some enjoyment there.

  12. #27
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    I've read a few of the other runs, and never found them enjoyable at all. The idea that she was perfect may not be completely accurate, but she always was stuck up and aloof to a degree, until now.

  13. #28
    Veteran Member Dr. Hurt's Avatar
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    I cant really explain how WW was "perfect". It's not a particular scene, it's everything. She was too formal, too well spoken, too hard to stray into human emotions and behaviours that didnt involve bravery, compassion, love, etc. I can only give you Superman's example, and even for him, i cant find specific scenes for old Superman that portray how he had become like WW. It was everything about him too.

    So anyway, when i look at the pre-52 one, i see a married man, a bit of a beta, who often whines, mopes, etc. He was inspiring and heroic as Superman, but he was also lifeless, mundane, ordinary as well. When you'd place him next to Ironman or Batman, you could be damn sure that a modern reader wouldnt pick him. What's his cool factor? Eye lasers? Yeah i know about his themes and messages, but Batman can explore the same ones and be cool at the same time.

    Morrison might have written the classic Superman in All-Star, but he was a badass, he was a super genious, he was a Renaissance man, he had a little snark and sense of humor, etc and when he made a fool of himself as Clark, there was always a sense that he was having fun with it. He wasnt moping about it like "well i have to pretend i'm this dork so that i protect my identity. Why wont Lois love me? Bawwwww!" I liked STAS superman for the same reasons.



    But look at new 52 Superman. He has a modern hairstyle and a more modern looking suit (much to purists' dismay). Clark is a headstrong crusading journalist and Jimmy is his friend (meaning he finally has a friend in Metropolis), he is the typical good guy but not a dork. He is an admirable good guy, not the boring or pathetic good guy. As Superman he doesnt puff his chest and deliver speeches before battle, he's more of a hands on guy, a leftie as opposed to a government tool, he speaks about his ideas like a common man would, not like a politician would. Would the old Superman speak like this?



    And this is why Superman needed this. Because he had become archaic. People want to read about that wise father figure who always knows the right thing, but most of the time they want to read about a hero being a badass and kicking ass. That's why he's more casual, his eyes flare up red more often, and they re trying to give him a cool suit somewhat copying Ironman's Extremis. But that doesnt mean that he doesnt fight for the same ideals, or that he wont give you a hug and tell you that your psychiatrist just run into traffic and everything is going to be ok. (that scene man... still gives me goosebumps)




    This is quite different from what we've had till now, but it closely resembles the Golden Age Superman, meaning this is part of the character's history before he became a super-housewife. So people have less reason to whine. WW never had Azzarello's treatment before, and she's tied to feminism so much, that it's pretty obvious why you cant reinvent her as easily. Fans are going to get angry, and feminists who dont read comics will put it under the microscope.

    Still, you need to remember that comics go round in circles and after a few years you can look at the various eras, the good things and the bad things and distill the best parts of each one to go forward. This is what Morrison did with Batman who btw has had the most varied and inconsistent history in comics. From Adam West to Frank Miller. Why cant WW be Vertigo, or steampunk, or comedy, or horror, etc?
    Last edited by Dr. Hurt; 04-27-2012 at 05:51 AM.

  14. #29
    Veteran Member Dr. Hurt's Avatar
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    So let's get back to Wonder Woman. Ignore the stories in JL and the WW book. Lets just look at her character.

    In Justice League we saw her as a happy go lucky swashbuckler who wants to have adventure. I loved that. She was young and she felt young. She didnt mope (Odyssey), and she didnt come to preach, to become an ambassador, or a symbol. She's just a young girl. She's excited about life, about travels, about ice cream, about action. Even the goddamn batman got a globe trotting adventure before he became batman. For me the best part of Batman Begins was his mystical journey, not beating up Scarecrow. And that time of his life is so open to adding adventures. They've had him get training by Zatarra (BTAS episode "Zatanna"), have a rivalry with Ducard's son (B&R - didnt like that), meet a traveling Clark Kent in Nanda Parbat (S/B story that is not canon i think), etc. It's so mystical, interesting, adventurous! We now learn that Aquaman had a similar adventure with the Others. Even Superman had that as a young journalist in Africa (Birthright).

    Diana just came here and she was WW from day 1. "Now let me tell you about feminism, or liberty, or democracy, blah, blah, blah". She was never really a fun young woman. But fans being hateful of change called her Xena, barbaric, bloodthirsty and other such nonsense. I dont know much about Thor but i watched the movie and i see Diana just like him. Eager for a fight, brash, perhaps a bit immature, and with a lot to learn. That's character growth. Aquaman was a douche 5 years ago, but he is a stoic hero now. What changed? I literally cant wait for Johns to tell me.


    And what about Azz's WW. Well she's not as fun but then again she's older and she's being hit with shocking revelations about her and her nation. But she's friendly, she's compassionate, she's casual, she's heroic and brave. She's also brash, perhaps a bit too trusting in other people's good nature, and she has a temper when you push her too hard (as Aleka and Strife found out). She also doesnt mope, neither on a rooftop, nor in front of a TV while eating ice cream (god damn it Kelly). She's the outgoing type. She'll go to a club and listen to her favourite rock band and share her feelings. Perhaps she'll have a walk with Zola. And even to that little pathetic redneck girl, she's a sister, not a mother or a hero on a pondium that Zola must reach. WW accepts her for who she is.





    In other words WW is less tied down, less stuck up, more friendly, more casual. More of a cool sister to other people and to the reader, than a mother figure who'll scold you because you dont uphold her ideals. Hell she was the ideals.
    Last edited by Dr. Hurt; 04-27-2012 at 04:55 AM.

  15. #30
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    It's fair to say that "perfect person from a perfect society," as a characterization of Wonder Woman in previous runs, is hyperbole. And I can understand how it annoys some people.

    I guess it might be more accurate to say that "Wonder Woman's and the Amazons imperfections generally did not create enough drama and storytelling potential for our taste because those imperfections were either not sufficiently serious, not widespread or visible enough, or not of the right kind for that purpose, in our opinion."

    But that's just not how Azz's interview style, you know?

    Back on the fourth sponsor: If it is Strife, maybe she was using the Wonder Woman role (and escortign Steve Trevor off the island) as a kind of "golden apple" to create discord among the Amazons; she might have influenced them all to want to be Wonder Woman, thus instigating the tournament. The myths (Hesiod?) did say that Eris or strife could play a positive role by stoking peoples' ambitions to outdo each other, thus leading to greater achievements.

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