Wonder Woman origin the Aquaman way?

[americanwonder]

... With WW, Azzarello is changing the origin and rules of the franchise but he is sticking to the present. I was thinking that maybe all these changes should have happened 5 or 4 years ago, so that Diana would be much younger and at the stage of her life where she is discovering man's world and perhaps even her own home and heritage. While she still feels really young and she's not the veteran she was pre-Flashpoint (ditto for every other hero), i cant help but feel that it's not the best time for this. It's a bit too late for such a defining moment...

Good point, Dr. Hurt. I agree. Since this Diana feels younger and less experienced to me, I just tend to read the story as if it's early on in her super-career, official timeline or not.

I'm curious, Steve--if (just hypothetically) the Amazon's booty-raiding past remains part of their history, but Diana is able to help guide them towards reform and redemption and becoming a model culture, will they alleviate your concerns? Or do you feel they need to have an ideal past (e.g., Hephaestus story has to be shown to be grossly distorted) as well as a progressive present and future? (I honestly don't mean the question to be loaded; I'm just curious what you think.)

You didn't ask me, and this is nothing against you, Slvn - but, I don't care for this idea.

... secondly because I honestly think Diana's human adversaries are very much lacking in appeal ...

Perhaps they should work on that rather than ignore it?

[Dr. Hurt]

Good point, Dr. Hurt. I agree. Since this Diana feels younger and less experienced to me, I just tend to read the story as if it's early on in her super-career, official timeline or not.

Thanks. That's how i try to see it as well!

Perhaps they should work on that rather than ignore it?

Agreed. I dont like everything Johns does, but there's one thing he does best: Reinventing old characters. Look what he did for Sinestro. I think that if he manages to get WW, he could do wonders for her villains.

I dont know if i want him to write her book, but i think he could apply his magic touch on a few WW villains.

[americanwonder]

Thanks. That's how i try to see it as well!

I don't think Azzarello is too worried about official timelines and such, and it feels like he's going for a timeless type of tale (ie, not set in any given year), I figure it's a-ok to place it early on in her career.

Agreed. I dont like everything Johns does, but there's one thing he does best: Reinventing old characters. Look what he did for Sinestro. I think that if he manages to get WW, he could do wonders for her villains.

I dont know if i want him to write her book, but i think he could apply his magic touch on a few WW villains.

Totally agree. I'm sure he doesn't want to step on other writers' toes, but it would be fun to see what he could come up with for some of her villains.

And now that Azzarello is writing WW, can we talk him into a Cheetah story to go along with Luthor and Joker?

[Dr. Hurt]

I don't think Azzarello is too worried about official timelines and such, and it feels like he's going for a timeless type of tale (ie, not set in any given year), I figure it's a-ok to place it early on in her career.



Totally agree. I'm sure he doesn't want to step on other writers' toes, but it would be fun to see what he could come up with for some of her villains.

And now that Azzarello is writing WW, can we talk him into a Cheetah story to go along with Luthor and Joker?

Cheetah and Circe would be nice to see.

[SteveGus]

Actually the Gods were absent up untill the very last issues of Hester's run, they even mentioned that they were gone without a reason to why...cept Nemesis ofc.

I'm counting Morrigan as a goddess; she is, if not a Greek one.

Well, they aren't supervillains now either, they are a part of the story where Diana is having to explore the family she now knows she's a part of, a family that has a reputation for scheming and backstabbing. Personally I like the gods are currently part of the focus, partially because I generally like that sort of thing, secondly because I honestly think Diana's human adversaries are very much lacking in appeal when compared to the Gods.

The thing is, from the kind of things I understand him to have written beforehand, building up human villains would seem to me to be something more in Azzarello's specialty than Greek gods. His are no more authentic to mythology, probably less so than Perez's. He's turned them into the Olympian Sopranos, a soap opera about a crime family. You'd think a villain like Angle Man would be more up his alley.

Diana's villains are lacking because hardly any of them have been built up by successive generations of writers. They've all been content to introduce their own. This was Simone's biggest disappointment for me, wasting all that ink on Genocide story that could have been told with the mildest of changes with the creepy kid Devastation. On the other hand, on paper, is there a villain lamer than Joker? An insane gangster in clown pancake? It's writers that made Joker a credible threat. And none of Diana's villains have been developed like Joker has.

I do get the impression that Azzarello had only done the lightest of research into Wonder Woman's history. His "perfect person from a perfect society" remarks suggests that he's maybe read the first Perez trade, with maybe Marston thrown in, and looked at some Jimenez pinups in a Secret Files and Origins. He has not read Simone, nor Rucka, nor Messner-Loebs, nor the later parts of Perez's run, to say nothing of Mishkin, Harris, Pasko; if he had read their material he would know that isn't true.

And Paradise Island endures, in a changed form, a change Diana so far has not been affected by. The problem with Paradise Island, unlike the locations you mention, is that the place is not a place Diana spends most of her on page appearances. Occasionally it is visited briefly, once in a blue moon PI is a central part of the story. Unlike the Batcave, Diana doesnt start from there and she doesn't return there when the threat is past.
For most of her publication PI has been a symbol to WW, and that symbol has been stained, but so far we have not seen Diana wash her hands of it.

It may not be much, but it's Diana's corner of the DCU, and the home of her most enduring supporting cast.

[shyguy]

The thing about Paradise Island is that it's more important symbolically than it is in any actual story mechanics. The entire point of her origin is that she comes to Man's World to inspire us to live a better way because she comes from an enlightened society. At this point, PI has basically been devolved to the point where it would make more sense the other way around; PI is an isolated, backward mud pit, and we'd be better off treating it like we do other 3rd world countries.

I think the problem is that writers just cannot leave PI alone for five minutes. The more time Diana spends there, the more Amazons have to be crazy or evil in order to have a story. Granted, we're doing better now than we were in the wake of Amazons Attack, when it turned out that all of the Amazons were murderous supervillains.

[MelDyer]

I think Denny O'Neil had it right, making Diana an independent entrepeneur and her own boss, and I'd love to see Azzarello nail this down, more clearly.

With help of her partner/confidant, I Ching, and young friend Zola, she runs Prince Imports, an exotic antiques emporium camouflaging her life as ‘Wonder Woman’. Prince Imports is based in a large, simple brownstone, where Diana and Zola share an apartment, with still another apartment, belonging to Ching. Trips out of London, Annapolis or Georgetown (in DC) and to exotic lands, bizarre dimensions and lost civilizations immerse her in a world of colorful, larger-than-life characters, danger, magic or weird science, ..when trouble doesn’t find her at home. Basically, it's a variation of the Denny O'Neil run, with Wonder Woman's full powers, intact.

I feel Wondy's a little too unattached, right now.

For my money, having her wander the world like Beatrix Kiddo (Kill Bill) or Wolverine doesn't agree with me, because she's not Wolverine. I think Denny O'Neil got the storytelling formula right, when he made Diana Prince and one, non-romantic male partner the proprietors of a small business -a simple one, we can all understand- from which her adventures could be launched, with relative ease. Wonder Woman is a feminist icon and a symbol of freedom for all, and, as such, should be truly independent, in charge of her own time, resources and economy.

I'd rather see her, with Zola and I Ching, running a small emporium, than having her presiding over an embassy, requiring a large, rambling cast of inconsequential characters -secretaries, housekeepers, cooks, security personnel- who ultimately have nothing to do with a Wonder Woman story. Seriously, ..how was that ever going to work, as a long-term premise for storytelling?

Wonder Woman's situation (setting, career, etc) ought to be simple, easy to understand and true to the feminist and independent spirit of the character. You should be able to explain it to a child, who isn't Dakota Fanning or Ronan (Seamus) Farrow. Keep it simple -not loose, but, simple.

[Outside_85]

I'm counting Morrigan as a goddess; she is, if not a Greek one.

It is perhaps fortunate that there are so few beings capable of rewriting reality?

The thing is, from the kind of things I understand him to have written beforehand, building up human villains would seem to me to be something more in Azzarello's specialty than Greek gods. His are no more authentic to mythology, probably less so than Perez's. He's turned them into the Olympian Sopranos, a soap opera about a crime family. You'd think a villain like Angle Man would be more up his alley.

Sorry, but you seem to know very little about Greek mythology when you say they are inaccurately portrayed by Azzarello. That they were almost all benevolent beings was a massive mis-characterization, because all of them could do dreadful things to mortals if given the excuse.

But rummaging through WW's rogue gallery (for characters that no ones seen in over a decade) seems more Morrisons thing.

Diana's villains are lacking because hardly any of them have been built up by successive generations of writers. They've all been content to introduce their own. This was Simone's biggest disappointment for me, wasting all that ink on Genocide story that could have been told with the mildest of changes with the creepy kid Devastation. On the other hand, on paper, is there a villain lamer than Joker? An insane gangster in clown pancake? It's writers that made Joker a credible threat. And none of Diana's villains have been developed like Joker has.

True and it is company will thats keeping Joker alive (most of the Gotham underworld would probably have killed him early on). And yeah, lack of use and development is probably why Diana's human foes are so poor.

I do get the impression that Azzarello had only done the lightest of research into Wonder Woman's history. His "perfect person from a perfect society" remarks suggests that he's maybe read the first Perez trade, with maybe Marston thrown in, and looked at some Jimenez pinups in a Secret Files and Origins. He has not read Simone, nor Rucka, nor Messner-Loebs, nor the later parts of Perez's run, to say nothing of Mishkin, Harris, Pasko; if he had read their material he would know that isn't true.

It's the common perception that Diana is the perfect woman and that she comes from a perfect background. She's friendly, strong, compassionate, on part with Superman (and drop dead gorgeous). Her origins are (or were) rooted in divine blessings and not tragedy. She is a superhero not because she tries to avenge anyone or for someone's memory, but because she is a good person and wants to share that with the world. The Amazons were created as the ultimate society because that was how Marston imagined utopia and over the years, nothing has really moved that perception. Little things like WML's scheming Hippolyta or Simone's tiny Circle has changed anyones perception of perfection that was that Island in the sunshine.

It may not be much, but it's Diana's corner of the DCU, and the home of her most enduring supporting cast.[/QUOTE]

Thats probably part of her problem, the only enduring support cast is Hippolyta, the rest have such inconsistent appearances they hardly count. They show up once in a while, but I only count Diana meeting Hippolyta when she heads for home.

Perhaps they should work on that rather than ignore it?

Not for my sake :) But if they do, they have to put them on a level that they are actually a threat to Diana and not just the people around her. (Might be talking out of my rear with this one but here goes.) Like Dr. Psycho (who I think is the little man from Action Comics) was hardly a threat to Diana despite his powers, because she was more or less immune to him (due to the lasso and such things) so he had to target people around her to be a threat. Cheeta and Giganta are almost infamously outmatched when faced with Diana, because neither of them are on the level they engage her on the physical.
Superman's gallery have the same difficulties because of his power-levels, but they tend to either be physically on his level or compensate for it some way (like Lex does).

[SteveGus]

Sorry, but you seem to know very little about Greek mythology when you say they are inaccurately portrayed by Azzarello. That they were almost all benevolent beings was a massive mis-characterization, because all of them could do dreadful things to mortals if given the excuse.

I'm not speaking of benevolence or malevolence, although I suspect Azzarello makes them a bit too malicious. Their physical forms here are obviously non-canonical; not sure how much of that is Azzarello and how much his artists' choices. On the other hand, in actual Greek mythology internal conflict on Olympus was almost always related to events in the mortal world and the activities of human protagonists, and I don't see that yet here. Paris makes the (bloody obvious) choice, so Aphrodite backs the Trojans and Athena and Hera back the Greeks. Poseidon doesn't like Odysseus but Hermes is his pal. Juno hates Aeneas, but Venus likes him. Here all the gods are hostile.

True and it is company will thats keeping Joker alive (most of the Gotham underworld would probably have killed him early on). And yeah, lack of use and development is probably why Diana's human foes are so poor.

What the character needs is stability and back to basics, not another Bold New Direction.

It's the common perception that Diana is the perfect woman and that she comes from a perfect background. She's friendly, strong, compassionate, on part with Superman (and drop dead gorgeous). Her origins are (or were) rooted in divine blessings and not tragedy. She is a superhero not because she tries to avenge anyone or for someone's memory, but because she is a good person and wants to share that with the world.

Leaving aside the whole "perfection" business, the fact that Diana does not have a tragic background but a nurturing and supportive one is the key to the character, I think. To the extent that is taken away, Wonder Woman ceases to exist.

[americanwonder]

... the fact that Diana does not have a tragic background but a nurturing and supportive one is the key to the character, I think. To the extent that is taken away, Wonder Woman ceases to exist.

I wouldn't say that WW ceases to exist, but I do get tired of the superhero "tragic background" overkill. It's almost like you can't grow up a well-adjusted, good person wanting to help unless something horrible happened to you. Which, ironically, almost seems less heroic, in a way.

[Dr. Hurt]

I think Denny O'Neil had it right, making Diana an independent entrepeneur and her own boss, and I'd love to see Azzarello nail this down, more clearly.

With help of her partner/confidant, I Ching, and young friend Zola, she runs Prince Imports, an exotic antiques emporium camouflaging her life as ‘Wonder Woman’. Prince Imports is based in a large, simple brownstone, where Diana and Zola share an apartment, with still another apartment, belonging to Ching. Trips out of London, Annapolis or Georgetown (in DC) and to exotic lands, bizarre dimensions and lost civilizations immerse her in a world of colorful, larger-than-life characters, danger, magic or weird science, ..when trouble doesn’t find her at home. Basically, it's a variation of the Denny O'Neil run, with Wonder Woman's full powers, intact.

I feel Wondy's a little too unattached, right now.

For my money, having her wander the world like Beatrix Kiddo (Kill Bill) or Wolverine doesn't agree with me, because she's not Wolverine. I think Denny O'Neil got the storytelling formula right, when he made Diana Prince and one, non-romantic male partner the proprietors of a small business -a simple one, we can all understand- from which her adventures could be launched, with relative ease. Wonder Woman is a feminist icon and a symbol of freedom for all, and, as such, should be truly independent, in charge of her own time, resources and economy.

I'd rather see her, with Zola and I Ching, running a small emporium, than having her presiding over an embassy, requiring a large, rambling cast of inconsequential characters -secretaries, housekeepers, cooks, security personnel- who ultimately have nothing to do with a Wonder Woman story. Seriously, ..how was that ever going to work, as a long-term premise for storytelling?

Wonder Woman's situation (setting, career, etc) ought to be simple, easy to understand and true to the feminist and independent spirit of the character. You should be able to explain it to a child, who isn't Dakota Fanning or Ronan (Seamus) Farrow. Keep it simple -not loose, but, simple.

Wait... no Lennox?

Ok mister, where is the real MelDyer and what have you done to him?

[Outside_85]

I'm not speaking of benevolence or malevolence, although I suspect Azzarello makes them a bit too malicious.

Not sure what you mean by that, Strife, Apollo and Ares were more or less just part of what scenes they were part of, callous or uncaring is maybe a better choice of words. But then again Azzarello has stated that he wanted to bring across the fact that the Gods are not humans, even less so than a number of human-like aliens.

Their physical forms here are obviously non-canonical; not sure how much of that is Azzarello and how much his artists' choices.

Personally I think it is in the gods nature to take an appearance that suits them, like Hermes said the Underworld changes to fit Hades' whims.
But then again, some on these boards have noticed that their appearances are just updated to fit the present, as in the case of Ares.

On the other hand, in actual Greek mythology internal conflict on Olympus was almost always related to events in the mortal world and the activities of human protagonists, and I don't see that yet here. Paris makes the (bloody obvious) choice, so Aphrodite backs the Trojans and Athena and Hera back the Greeks. Poseidon doesn't like Odysseus but Hermes is his pal. Juno hates Aeneas, but Venus likes him. Here all the gods are hostile.

The mortal link is kinda needed to have witness' to these stories that were told around campfires and in taverns: "Yeah, my uncle fought at Troy!"
Btw, you are mistaken in regards to the Trojan War, it was Strife that presented a golden apple to Athena, Aphrodite and Hera but remarked that it was only for the fairest. First the three went to Zeus, who (wisely) didnt want to chose any of them, so they settled with Paris.

What the character needs is stability and back to basics, not another Bold New Direction.

Some would need a Bold New Direction.

Leaving aside the whole "perfection" business, the fact that Diana does not have a tragic background but a nurturing and supportive one is the key to the character, I think. To the extent that is taken away, Wonder Woman ceases to exist.

Well, has it been taken away? What the Amazons may have done before Diana was born would probably not influence Hippolyta's devotion to her, some like Aleka didn't like her, but I don't think Diana was disliked by her majority sisters.