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  1. #1
    Veteran Member Dr. Hurt's Avatar
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    Default Wonder Woman origin the Aquaman way?

    I was reading Aquaman and i thought that Johns is handling his origin really well. He started in the present day but then he tied the present story to Aquaman's past, allowing him to use flashbacks and explore it. Where he grew up, what did he do when his father died, did he rule Atlantis or not, who is this Shin guy, what's Manta's deal, etc? It's implied that something big happened in his early days and turned him from a douche to the stoic hero we have now.

    With WW, Azzarello is changing the origin and rules of the franchise but he is sticking to the present. I was thinking that maybe all these changes should have happened 5 or 4 years ago, so that Diana would be much younger and at the stage of her life where she is discovering man's world and perhaps even her own home and heritage. While she still feels really young and she's not the veteran she was pre-Flashpoint (ditto for every other hero), i cant help but feel that it's not the best time for this. It's a bit too late for such a defining moment. Doing this story earlier would have made her career more consistent, because now it feels like before this point she was classic WW, and once she found out about Zeus and the Amazons she became Azz WW. It's like Bruce becoming batman and then 5 years in his career he learns that his parents were killed.

    Truth be told, it hasnt affected her character, at this point she is who she is and that's one of the good things about this, she doesnt care about Zeus, she knows it's all Hippolyta, and she knows that her duty is to protect Zola. But why not streamline it? Now if you want to tell her origin you have to start with the clay origin and then say "but 5 years in her career she finds out that Zeus was her father and all kinds of god shenanigans ensue".

    I assume that all this happened so that they wouldnt piss off the fans at the start of the DCnU, but really now, do you see this WW as an ambassador? It's already implied that she wasnt one and she just left the island to find herself. So that pretty much throws most of her old stories out. So why not do this from the start of her career and make her Azz WW from the get go?
    Last edited by Dr. Hurt; 04-26-2012 at 05:07 AM.

  2. #2
    Junior Member Bluewing_A23's Avatar
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    I think Azz just want to tell the story. He didn't want to build her up from the start. It's like "I don't care what happen 5 years ago. You think for yourself, or stick with the original story. I'm here to tell my".

    And I think it's not the same. Aquaman knows about his past, WW just discovered hers.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dr. Hurt View Post
    I was reading Aquaman and i thought that Johns is handling his origin really well. He started in the present day but then he tied the present story to Aquaman's past, allowing him to use flashbacks and explore it. Where he grew up, what did he do when his father died, did he rule Atlantis or not, who is this Shin guy, what's Manta's deal, etc? It's implied that something big happened in his early days and turned him from a douche to the stoic hero we have now.
    Isn't telling new origin stories pretty much what Johns always does at the beginning of a new book?

    With WW, Azzarello is changing the origin and rules of the franchise but he is sticking to the present. I was thinking that maybe all these changes should have happened 5 or 4 years ago, so that Diana would be much younger and at the stage of her life where she is discovering man's world and perhaps even her own home and heritage. While she still feels really young and she's not the veteran she was pre-Flashpoint (ditto for every other hero), i cant help but feel that it's not the best time for this. It's a bit too late for such a defining moment. Doing this story earlier would have made her career more consistent, because now it feels like before this point she was classic WW, and once she found out about Zeus and the Amazons she became Azz WW. It's like Bruce becoming batman and then 5 years in his career he learns that his parents were killed.
    I think that that is the entire point of Azzarello doing these things now, if you dumped all of this info on her in the past, it is not a shock to her present that is supposed to still contain the most important bits from her past.
    Also it would remove some parts of the current story if we came into Diana's story sometime after Hera turned Hippolyta to stone (imagine picking up #5 as your first and not having read anything in regards to #1-4). Now Diana is also stuck in the underworld and I am hoping she runs into her mom down there and have time for a little chat (Hades might think it suitable that Hippolyta helps Diana prepare for the 'big event').

    Truth be told, it hasnt affected her character, at this point she is who she is and that's one of the good things about this, she doesnt care about Zeus, she knows it's all Hippolyta, and she knows that her duty is to protect Zola. But why not streamline it? Now if you want to tell her origin you have to start with the clay origin and then say "but 5 years in her career she finds out that Zeus was her father and all kinds of god shenanigans ensue".
    If you write a new origins for her, why would you not want to write that story?
    "But eventually Hal cracked under the strain of being Lantern, he went crazy, killed a lot of people before he died and was later redeemed and reborn."

    I assume that all this happened so that they wouldnt piss off the fans at the start of the DCnU, but really now, do you see this WW as an ambassador? It's already implied that she wasnt one and she just left the island to find herself. So that pretty much throws most of her old stories out. So why not do this from the start of her career and make her Azz WW from the get go?
    Diana's role as the Ambassador for Peace has always been extremely underplayed by just about every writer who's had her under their pen, most of the time its remembered its as an afterthough or cameo. Rucka and Bruce Timm made her the ambassador/representative for Themyscira as a nation but that too was rarely used for anything more than being able to explain why she was in location A at time B.
    Brian might have just went the easy route and went "You know, forget it, its not useful and it doesnt add anything storywise, so why bother?" (I know its a great thing to say about your character that she's an Ambassador for Peace, but if it doesn't spawn any good stories it is just a name tag with little value when the character is beheading monsters with a sword.)

  4. #4
    Veteran Member Dr. Hurt's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Outside_85 View Post
    I think that that is the entire point of Azzarello doing these things now, if you dumped all of this info on her in the past, it is not a shock to her present that is supposed to still contain the most important bits from her past.
    Also it would remove some parts of the current story if we came into Diana's story sometime after Hera turned Hippolyta to stone (imagine picking up #5 as your first and not having read anything in regards to #1-4). Now Diana is also stuck in the underworld and I am hoping she runs into her mom down there and have time for a little chat (Hades might think it suitable that Hippolyta helps Diana prepare for the 'big event').
    I was just thinking that all these shocks could have happened 5 years ago when she was starting out.
    If you write a new origins for her, why would you not want to write that story?
    "But eventually Hal cracked under the strain of being Lantern, he went crazy, killed a lot of people before he died and was later redeemed and reborn."
    But that's just Hal's story, not origin. WW's origin now becomes "she thought she was born from clay but really she was Zeus' child". Hm... ok, that doesnt sound so bad after all.

    Diana's role as the Ambassador for Peace has always been extremely underplayed by just about every writer who's had her under their pen, most of the time its remembered its as an afterthough or cameo. Rucka and Bruce Timm made her the ambassador/representative for Themyscira as a nation but that too was rarely used for anything more than being able to explain why she was in location A at time B.
    Brian might have just went the easy route and went "You know, forget it, its not useful and it doesnt add anything storywise, so why bother?" (I know its a great thing to say about your character that she's an Ambassador for Peace, but if it doesn't spawn any good stories it is just a name tag with little value when the character is beheading monsters with a sword.)
    I agree. Rucka actually gave her a full blown embassy and made her into mother Teresa with superpowers, but i always found all this ambassador stuff boring and too formal. I like how she isnt tied by a job and she's just crusading all over the globe.

  5. #5
    They LAUGHED at my theory SteveGus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dr. Hurt View Post
    I agree. Rucka actually gave her a full blown embassy and made her into mother Teresa with superpowers, but i always found all this ambassador stuff boring and too formal. I like how she isnt tied by a job and she's just crusading all over the globe.
    I agree. All Rucka's taking the 'ambassador' title literally seemed to do was tie up the book in a lot of talky plot points and real-world political baggage. (I even tried to read the excerpts from the manifesto that appeared in the Rucka run. Diana made less sense than the Unabomber.) It's the same deal as 'feminist symbol'. Diana serves as a feminist symbol first and foremost by being a female superhero who's just as powerful as the many male superheroes. Diana shows herself to be an 'ambassador' or 'emissary of peace' by the way she deals with superpowered conflicts. It's all got to lead to superheroics or it ain't squat.
    Superhero comic books only become art to the extent that their banal, unrealistic fantasy and garish styles go too far and become interesting. Attempts to ground them in reality can only ruin them.

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    Veteran Member Dr. Hurt's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SteveGus View Post
    I agree. All Rucka's taking the 'ambassador' title literally seemed to do was tie up the book in a lot of talky plot points and real-world political baggage. (I even tried to read the excerpts from the manifesto that appeared in the Rucka run. Diana made less sense than the Unabomber.) It's the same deal as 'feminist symbol'. Diana serves as a feminist symbol first and foremost by being a female superhero who's just as powerful as the many male superheroes. Diana shows herself to be an 'ambassador' or 'emissary of peace' by the way she deals with superpowered conflicts. It's all got to lead to superheroics or it ain't squat.
    I agree with you. When they take it too literally we end up with a boring WW.

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    Quote Originally Posted by SteveGus View Post
    I agree. All Rucka's taking the 'ambassador' title literally seemed to do was tie up the book in a lot of talky plot points and real-world political baggage. (I even tried to read the excerpts from the manifesto that appeared in the Rucka run. Diana made less sense than the Unabomber.) It's the same deal as 'feminist symbol'. Diana serves as a feminist symbol first and foremost by being a female superhero who's just as powerful as the many male superheroes. Diana shows herself to be an 'ambassador' or 'emissary of peace' by the way she deals with superpowered conflicts. It's all got to lead to superheroics or it ain't squat.
    The bold part: I kinda find it funny then you dislike the current run so much then, since Diana is battling gods when Superman is having to content with Wildstorm's gooey aliens. Granted she isn't handing out knuckle sandwiches to them while laying waste the surrounding area, but when was it really a part of Diana's character to beat the living daylights out of anyone if it wasn't needed?
    Btw, I think you mean 'as capable as any male hero' as opposed to powerful, since Batman is pretty much be-all end-all hero and he doesn't have any powers at all save his smarts.

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    They LAUGHED at my theory SteveGus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Outside_85 View Post
    The bold part: I kinda find it funny then you dislike the current run so much then, since Diana is battling gods when Superman is having to content with Wildstorm's gooey aliens. Granted she isn't handing out knuckle sandwiches to them while laying waste the surrounding area, but when was it really a part of Diana's character to beat the living daylights out of anyone if it wasn't needed?
    Btw, I think you mean 'as capable as any male hero' as opposed to powerful, since Batman is pretty much be-all end-all hero and he doesn't have any powers at all save his smarts.
    I don't dislike everything about the current run so far. I don't mind Diana being a daughter of Zeus, although the gods should not be the chief villains or supporting cast, or the long term focus of the book; we've just gone through the JMS/Hester run that was gods, gods, gods; they figured prominently in the Rucka run as well. If you want to keep the gods as gods and not turn them into supervillains, they need to be used as sparingly as, say, Galactus.

    My chief issues with the run are its generally bleak tone, which simply means I haven't enjoyed reading it; and the denigration and apparent destruction of the Amazons and Paradise Island, which strikes me as a particularly bad development in light of the reboot. Paradise Island is both her Batcave and her Metropolis, her retreat and her wondrous city of tomorrow. It is essential. And through the too many light reboots and total changes in scene and supporting cast we've seen, they're the one thing that's always been constant. Wonder Woman is not Wonder Woman without Paradise Island. If it's only a plot point in Azzarello's story, fine; but again the reboot concerns me.
    Superhero comic books only become art to the extent that their banal, unrealistic fantasy and garish styles go too far and become interesting. Attempts to ground them in reality can only ruin them.

  9. #9

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    Quote Originally Posted by Outside_85 View Post
    The bold part: I kinda find it funny then you dislike the current run so much then, since Diana is battling gods when Superman is having to content with Wildstorm's gooey aliens. Granted she isn't handing out knuckle sandwiches to them while laying waste the surrounding area, but when was it really a part of Diana's character to beat the living daylights out of anyone if it wasn't needed?
    Btw, I think you mean 'as capable as any male hero' as opposed to powerful, since Batman is pretty much be-all end-all hero and he doesn't have any powers at all save his smarts.
    I'm sorry, I was going to let this go but it's bugging me. There's no apostrophe in 'Its' in your signature.

  10. #10
    Senior Member Seant's Avatar
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    I'm also glad the ambassador stuff has been thrown out. I prefer a Diana who is concerned with specific people (like Zola) than concerned with humanity as a whole, meaning she does good by giving speeches, etc. Diana changing people's lives and minds one at a time makes for more engaging stories.

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Ray II View Post
    I'm sorry, I was going to let this go but it's bugging me. There's no apostrophe in 'Its' in your signature.
    Grammatically speaking, it could go either way. "It's fans" is a well formed English sentence, because "it is fans" is as well. ("Who's at the door? It's fans.") It is at least intelligibly responsive to the question of the first line; all you can say is that "it is the fans" would be more idiomatic, but this is style and not grammar.
    Superhero comic books only become art to the extent that their banal, unrealistic fantasy and garish styles go too far and become interesting. Attempts to ground them in reality can only ruin them.

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    Quote Originally Posted by SteveGus View Post
    If it's only a plot point in Azzarello's story, fine; but again the reboot concerns me.
    I'm curious, Steve--if (just hypothetically) the Amazon's booty-raiding past remains part of their history, but Diana is able to help guide them towards reform and redemption and becoming a model culture, will they alleviate your concerns? Or do you feel they need to have an ideal past (e.g., Hephaestus story has to be shown to be grossly distorted) as well as a progressive present and future? (I honestly don't mean the question to be loaded; I'm just curious what you think.)

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    Dr. Hurt STOP CHANGING YOUR AVATAR. SERIOUSLY BRO.

  14. #14
    They LAUGHED at my theory SteveGus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by slvn View Post
    I'm curious, Steve--if (just hypothetically) the Amazon's booty-raiding past remains part of their history, but Diana is able to help guide them towards reform and redemption and becoming a model culture, will they alleviate your concerns? Or do you feel they need to have an ideal past (e.g., Hephaestus story has to be shown to be grossly distorted) as well as a progressive present and future? (I honestly don't mean the question to be loaded; I'm just curious what you think.)
    To some extent, I can live with that. There are precious few characters that are part of the Wonder Woman family in the DCU. The current "Wonder Girl" is related only in name to Wonder Woman, and if she has a relationship to that background it remains obscure. Other characters that have enjoyed some popularity, like Artemis and Donna Troy, have yet to be seen.

    The status quo means that even if the names are introduced, they won't have a relationship to Wonder Woman and will be attached to some other body of lore. This diminishes Wonder Woman significantly if it happens that way, and as a Wonder Woman fan I don't like it at all.

    And it makes impossible any Life on Paradise Island miniseries by Gilbert Hernandez, which I would move mountains to bring to reality.
    Superhero comic books only become art to the extent that their banal, unrealistic fantasy and garish styles go too far and become interesting. Attempts to ground them in reality can only ruin them.

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    Quote Originally Posted by The Ray II View Post
    I'm sorry, I was going to let this go but it's bugging me. There's no apostrophe in 'Its' in your signature.
    Well it's not gonna change, so prepare to be bugged :)

    Quote Originally Posted by SteveGus View Post
    I don't dislike everything about the current run so far. I don't mind Diana being a daughter of Zeus, although the gods should not be the chief villains or supporting cast, or the long term focus of the book; we've just gone through the JMS/Hester run that was gods, gods, gods; they figured prominently in the Rucka run as well. If you want to keep the gods as gods and not turn them into supervillains, they need to be used as sparingly as, say, Galactus.
    Actually the Gods were absent up untill the very last issues of Hester's run, they even mentioned that they were gone without a reason to why...cept Nemesis ofc.
    Well, they aren't supervillains now either, they are a part of the story where Diana is having to explore the family she now knows she's a part of, a family that has a reputation for scheming and backstabbing. Personally I like the gods are currently part of the focus, partially because I generally like that sort of thing, secondly because I honestly think Diana's human adversaries are very much lacking in appeal when compared to the Gods.

    My chief issues with the run are its generally bleak tone, which simply means I haven't enjoyed reading it; and the denigration and apparent destruction of the Amazons and Paradise Island, which strikes me as a particularly bad development in light of the reboot. Paradise Island is both her Batcave and her Metropolis, her retreat and her wondrous city of tomorrow. It is essential. And through the too many light reboots and total changes in scene and supporting cast we've seen, they're the one thing that's always been constant. Wonder Woman is not Wonder Woman without Paradise Island. If it's only a plot point in Azzarello's story, fine; but again the reboot concerns me.
    And Paradise Island endures, in a changed form, a change Diana so far has not been affected by. The problem with Paradise Island, unlike the locations you mention, is that the place is not a place Diana spends most of her on page appearances. Occasionally it is visited briefly, once in a blue moon PI is a central part of the story. Unlike the Batcave, Diana doesnt start from there and she doesn't return there when the threat is past.
    For most of her publication PI has been a symbol to WW, and that symbol has been stained, but so far we have not seen Diana wash her hands of it.

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