The New 52: Is There A Miscommunication Between DC And Old Fans?

[Bill Lange]

When the New 52 started, many old fans believed this was a sign that DC Comics HATES their old fans. This perception has come up time and time again with things like Earth-2, the fate of Wally West and Donna Troy, etc.

My question is what has made this perception so prevalent? Has DC bringing back some old ideas (The Multiverse, Earth-2 being home to the Justice Society, Barbara Gordon as Batgirl) fueled your belief, or has it caused you to re-think your position? Has DC done enough to explain their position to you as to why they had to make these changes?

I will admit that, overall, I have loved the New 52, but I have some problem with the handling of a few things so far. One thing I've been having a problem with is the lack of understand their old readers. I want to hear how this can be fixed without having to blow up the New 52, or starting a new line of comics.

Let's hear what you have to say.

[Reginleif]

I have never read Kingdom Come, Infinite Crisis and most other pre-Flashpoint essentials, or anything pre-Flashpoint at all actually. DC understands that I am the future, and that my race, the New 52ers are the next generation in the industry.

[Buried Alien]

When the New 52 started, many old fans believed this was a sign that DC Comics HATES their old fans. This perception has come up time and time again with things like Earth-2, the fate of Wally West and Donna Troy, etc.

My question is what has made this perception so prevalent? Has DC bringing back some old ideas (The Multiverse, Earth-2 being home to the Justice Society, Barbara Gordon as Batgirl) fueled your belief, or has it caused you to re-think your position? Has DC done enough to explain their position to you as to why they had to make these changes?

I will admit that, overall, I have loved the New 52, but I have some problem with the handling of a few things so far. One thing I've been having a problem with is the lack of understand their old readers. I want to hear how this can be fixed without having to blow up the New 52, or starting a new line of comics.

Let's hear what you have to say.

Depends on *how* old. For even OLDER fans (like myself), having Barry Allen back as Flash, Hal Jordan back as the main GL, Barbara Gordon back as Batgirl, etc., the New 52 feels almost like a gift.

I say "almost" because gifts don't come with a price to the recipient, but losing Wally West and others was a part of the deal of receiving this "gift."

Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)

[Yttrium]

Depends on *how* old. For even OLDER fans (like myself), having Barry Allen back as Flash, Hal Jordan back as the main GL, Barbara Gordon back as Batgirl, etc., the New 52 feels almost like a gift.

Yeah, I'm an older fan, and DC clearly doesn't hate me. The Legion of Super-Heroes is back to being the team I enjoy. Earth 2 Huntress is back. Etc. Things are looking up, as far as I'm concerned.

[Bill Lange]

I have never read Kingdom Come, Infinite Crisis and most other pre-Flashpoint essentials, or anything pre-Flashpoint at all actually. DC understands that I am the future, and that my race, the New 52ers are the next generation in the industry.

Which is exactly what the New 52 was setup to do; give a new generation of readers a jumping on point without having to be bogged down with all the history.

Still, I remember Alan Moore once referred to Crisis On Infinite Earths as "throwing the baby out with the bath water". Is there a place for these old stories in the 52 Multiverse, or do we stay committed to new directions based on old concepts? Does bringing up these old concept anger older fans more then if they just left them alone?

[MajorHoy]

When the New 52 started, many old fans believed this was a sign that DC Comics HATES their old fans. This perception has come up time and time again with things like Earth-2, the fate of Wally West and Donna Troy, etc.

My question is what has made this perception so prevalent? Has DC bringing back some old ideas (The Multiverse, Earth-2 being home to the Justice Society, Barbara Gordon as Batgirl) fueled your belief, or has it caused you to re-think your position? Has DC done enough to explain their position to you as to why they had to make these changes?

I will admit that, overall, I have loved the New 52, but I have some problem with the handling of a few things so far. One thing I've been having a problem with is the lack of understand their old readers. I want to hear how this can be fixed without having to blow up the New 52, or starting a new line of comics.

Let's hear what you have to say.

First off, where did your assumption that "many old fans believed this was a sign that DC Comics HATES their old fans" come from?

I've complained a lot that it seems like DC doesn't care about desires and wishes of older, long-time fans, but I don't think they actively "hate" us. They had to make decisions / choices / changes to try and jump start the declining sales that have been a problem for a while, and I do think the change to the "New 52" succeeded at reviving interest in sales in their product. I may not like some of the ways they did it, and I may also wonder / worry if the increased sales / interest are long term or just temporary, but when all is said and done, they have to find ways to make money. And sometimes, that means ignoring some of the likes of older long-time fans in the hopes of building bridges to newer, future long-term customers.

[Buried Alien]

W

Still, I remember Alan Moore once referred to Crisis On Infinite Earths as "throwing the baby out with the bath water".

Moore was right about that, and echoing what many other fans were thinking at the time (and in all the years since). I don't know if COIE was actually necessary in the first place, but even if you accept that it was, it cut out much more than was strictly necessary or useful (proof: much of what was thrown out by COIE was eventually reintroduced in some form).

Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)

[Reginleif]

Which is exactly what the New 52 was setup to do; give a new generation of readers a jumping on point without having to be bogged down with all the history.

Still, I remember Alan Moore once referred to Crisis On Infinite Earths as "throwing the baby out with the bath water". Is there a place for these old stories in the 52 Multiverse, or do we stay committed to new directions based on old concepts? Does bringing up these old concept anger older fans more then if they just left them alone?

they still have many 'core' stories like Killing Joke and the Death of Superman around (none of which I have read, or intend too). The idea of keeping some elements makes sense, especailly considering these titles are avaliable in cheap collected editions that are always in print.

[Outside_85]

I dont think DC hates their fans, its just that so many of their moves strike particularly sore places with certain people...the people who were not enamored of the Pre-Crisis era of DC, either because they weren't reading back then or simply because they really liked what came after it. Like not everyone who likes Flash, likes to have Barry back in the costume and Wally in a void. It's kinda like they decided that 1980 to around 2000 was to be forgotten as much as possible, with certain exceptions, such as Kyle Rayner.
Wally especially is in a strange place because of DC's constant stonewalling when asked at cons regarding his whereabouts, which kinda looks like DC is trying to force Wally fans to switch over to Barry fans out of desperation for some flash action to their tastes. ("You'll only get Barry, so live with it. When Wally isnt a treat to his position as Flash, then you can have him back." Or something like that)

[Bill Lange]

Depends on *how* old. For even OLDER fans (like myself), having Barry Allen back as Flash, Hal Jordan back as the main GL, Barbara Gordon back as Batgirl, etc., the New 52 feels almost like a gift.

I say "almost" because gifts don't come with a price to the recipient, but losing Wally West and others was a part of the deal of receiving this "gift."

Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)

I agree with you, personally, but there are people I know that are upset by that, even when they have been mad for years that Wally took Barry's place. Would you agree that some people consider a return to the past (Pre-Crisis to us "old" guys) is the only way to go? Is that insulting to new readers like Reginleif? Is it irrational to believe that DC could turn back the clock that far back?

[Buried Alien]

I agree with you, personally, but there are people I know that are upset by that, even when they have been mad for years that Wally took Barry's place. Would you agree that some people consider a return to the past (Pre-Crisis to us "old" guys) is the only way to go? Is that insulting to new readers like Reginleif? Is it irrational to believe that DC could turn back the clock that far back?

As a practical matter, I don't think DC can...not at this point. I think the last possible chance they had to credibly do that would have been at the end of the 1980s (before newer characters such as Tim Drake, Wally West as the Flash, Kyle Rayner, and many, many others, became entrenched as new fan favorites). Heck, even *I* wouldn't want DC to go that far. As much as my first love is the Bronze Age DCU, I wouldn't want to give up many of the cool developments DC has made since then.

The New 52 is as close as it's going to get.

Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)

[Bill Lange]

First off, where did your assumption that "many old fans believed this was a sign that DC Comics HATES their old fans" come from?

I've complained a lot that it seems like DC doesn't care about desires and wishes of older, long-time fans, but I don't think they actively "hate" us. They had to make decisions / choices / changes to try and jump start the declining sales that have been a problem for a while, and I do think the change to the "New 52" succeeded at reviving interest in sales in their product. I may not like some of the ways they did it, and I may also wonder / worry if the increased sales / interest are long term or just temporary, but when all is said and done, they have to find ways to make money. And sometimes, that means ignoring some of the likes of older long-time fans in the hopes of building bridges to newer, future long-term customers.

Not really an assumption, just been around a few message boards and comic store to catch some of this. Let me clear up that I don't believe all old fans feel this way. Just a few that I have talked to.

Your answer is one I can understand. DC is a business, no matter how much some of us like to think differently, they have to turn a profit. The comic readership is getting older, and they took drastic measures to fix this. I believe they could have done a few things differently, but I see no malice in their decisions at any point and time.

What would you have done differently to make the switch over to the New 52 more acceptable to you?

[JoeP]

I think that the fact they didn't do a complete hard-reboot of everything shows they very much take into consideration the "older" fans and shows respect to the important storylines that have come before.

There was a post in the JL #8 thread that said it very well:

Proponents of a complete reboot fail to acknowledge all the enormous technical difficulties with such a move. Primary among is that it would require retelling everything. A partial reboot allows them to keep beloved stories that fans don't want to let go of. Case in point: you can keep The Killing Joke, but change the JLA's membership. You can keep Dick Grayson, Jason Todd and Damian Wayne without having to spend years re-telling every single chapter of those characters' lives.

Second, if they had thrown everything out and started from absolute zero? It would've failed miserably. It would've automatically become Heroes Reborn Version 2.0, if not worse. Throwing everything out is a horrible idea because an "all-new" continuity that retains nothing from the past is continually compared to what it replaced.

This issue becomes significantly defused by selectively keeping popular elements while discarding others. Of course, different executives, editors, writers and artists are all going to have wildly different opinions on what elements to keep and what to throw out. But there is far less risk with keeping most of the major elements and just throwing out parts here and there. Yes, the Wolfman/Perez Titans are gone, but not all Teen Titans are gone. Nightwing, Starfire and Cyborg are still there. Roy Harper is still there. A lot is gone, but not everything is gone.

Throwing out everything would've almost guaranteed failure and a 2nd reboot back to the past continuity. This partial reboot has tons of loopholes left because DC hasn't totally committed to a pre-set history--thus leaving themselves a very convenient escape clause anytime fans don't like something that's changed: "Wally West, Donna Troy, Stephanie Brown? Why, no, we haven't gotten rid of them forever! We just haven't gotten to reintroducing them *yet*."

Voila. They always leave the option wide open. The door isn't closed, but it's not open as to what they will eventually do. They can do it ala carte, picking and choosing what they want.

Erasing everything would only create a nearly 100% solid block of unified resistance to the entire New 52 premise where anything they came up with would be forced to pale in comparison to past stories and past creators' work. The New 52 is, for better or worse, the best of both worlds with tons of convenient loopholes, easy escape clauses and helpful flexibility. What's definitely in, what's definitely out? Anything and everything. They're literally having their cake and eating it, too.

[SteveGus]

When the New 52 started, many old fans believed this was a sign that DC Comics HATES their old fans.

They do seem to hate Wonder Woman fans. All that I can see Azzarello doing there is vandalizing a national monument. He needs to be sacked pronto and his run simply scrapped. And I am afraid that all of this is to set up a world without a Themiscyra/Paradise Island and a corrupted, likely anti-heroic Wonder Woman. I gather the Earth-2 version has lost an arm. I don't expect this one to emerge unscathed.

I am happy to see Barbara Gordon as Batgirl, and will stay so long as Simone is writing. But if the Wonder Woman run ends with her traditional supporting cast absent and her backstory darkened, I am entirely through with DC.

[Wolf_Leader]

I would guess everything DC has done for the last however many years has caused people to feel that way. It just happens that the New 52 changed so much all at once that there was a spike in people feeling that way. Pretty much any change people hate could have happened on its own without a reboot. What DC needs to do is find ways to encourage those readers to try the new stuff and be patient at the same time. It is a fine line though, because if if they have some cool stuff planned, for a character like Wally west for example, they don't want give away an upcoming story or anything, but if they don't have anything planned now they don't want to just throw him there just for the sake of it and ruin a potential story down the line.