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  1. #46
    Veteran Member AdamYJ's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bill Lange View Post
    Passion can lead to irrational behavior in some cases.

    One thing I've come to accept as a comic fan is that some characters that I love dearly are going to disappear sometimes. Sometimes the character I like just has a book that doesn't sell, and it has to go away. That's just business.

    I can sympathize with the Wally and Donna fans, but the truth is they weren't making money. Something had to be done.
    It's best to remember at the end of the day that it's all just paper and staples.
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  2. #47
    They LAUGHED at my theory SteveGus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AdamYJ View Post
    It's best to remember at the end of the day that it's all just paper and staples.
    That's only what Grant Morrison wants you to think!
    Superhero comic books only become art to the extent that their banal, unrealistic fantasy and garish styles go too far and become interesting. Attempts to ground them in reality can only ruin them.

  3. #48
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    I don't think they hate their fans, they simply don't care about anything other than money.

    And as Buried Alien said some "old fans" seem to be pretty happy about the changes. Is the younger fans - the ones that grew up with the "newer" generation like Wally, Donna, Cass, etc that lost the characters they cared about.
    Last edited by shark; 04-25-2012 at 07:25 PM.

  4. #49
    King of My World CagedLeo730's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SteveGus View Post
    A part of this has to do with changes in fashion in the way comic books are written between COIE and the present. In 1986, writing styles were still traditional enough and single issue oriented so that, though we were told that this is a newly minted universe, the writers began by telling origin stories and quickly establishing supporting casts. By issues 2 of the Byrne Superman or the Perez Wonder Woman, fans had a handle on what was different and what was the same in the new continuity. Whether they loved or hated it, everything was presented straight and they could decide whether they would live with it or not.

    This kind of set up isn't being done with the reboot, and the books are still being written for trade paperbacks rather than monthly readers. Again, it's particularly bad among the Wonder Woman fans; we were and are relatively small but fiercely loyal to our preferred versions of the character. DC drops on us a very leisurely dark fantasy and suspense story that, taken at its face value, leads to the both physical and moral destruction of her Amazon sisters. Azzarello's telling it Vertigo-style, as an extended Grandpa Simpson story where none of the characters may be speaking truly. It might be an excellent story to tell, but to tell such a thing at the same time that the universe is being rebooted leads Wonder Woman fans to expect the worst, and perceive that DC is cutting out the heart of the character and tainting and darkening her backstory. A proper origin story that speaks plainly and straightly as to what the new continuity is would help; apparently DC knows this is a problem, and this is what those Zero issues do.

    Good or bad, this seems to be a general problem: not only are we handed a new universe, it's our job to figure out the lore and characters too. The only nu52 book I've read (and I haven't read them all) where the #1 seemed to be doing a decent job of scene setting was the Perez Superman. Then again George Perez has been through this before and knows what the job entails.

    I don't think that the Zero issues are there to fix an error in not providing origins. That failure would be on the writer or editor for not doing enough to explain their characters. Some books did get origins like Blue Beetle, Superboy, and Action Comics, and some books explained origins through flashbacks.
    I do agree that the storytelling approach has changed dramatically since COIE. It seems that the art dictates more than the dialogue, and the panels per page has decreased dramatically. Some of these books are read within minutes.
    Perez did a good job with breakdowns and dialogue but he drug out his story way too long.
    The new52 was there to put old and new fans in the same boat discovring or re-discovering their favorite heroes. DC heads failed miserably by making old fans assume that their favorite characters wouldn't be rebooted. That lead people to believe all their stories would fit in a 5 year period. They kept getting shocked by reveal after reveal that it wouldn't be the case.

  5. #50
    Veteran Member Fate's Faith's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lexrules View Post
    What do you like about it Fate?
    Well, I will go with Superman since I know that's one of you favorites. Action Comics #1 presented a Superman I was familiar with but never actually read on a monthly basis. It was a change in attitude that reminded me of the past but in the present and also new in a way because of that. I knew the new suit was to come and did in Superman #1. But this was different than Bryne's reintroduction. While his history may have changed then, he was still the same personality. But this was a different personality that would or should tell a different story going forward. It just seemed fresh while also a historical remembrance of what used to be. It took me longer to warm up to the Flash for instance since he's been dead to me for years now and Wally was the Flash. Its a great looking book that also seems to have a new take of the character. I remembered when his first run was cancelled and it wasn't what I'd call an exciting period for the character. Not that I thought he should die but it did help make the death more acceptable. And that's not to say everything was wonderful. Some titles took a time to grab me. Red Hood is one of my favorite books now but at first, I was suspicous that this was even going to last six issues with me. In fact the whole Batman family of books are greatly enjoyed by me. I absolutely love Gotham City and its inhabitants more than ever. Of course Wonder Woman has torn down much of her backstory and resulted in a character that whose adventures I cannot wait to read each month. On the weeks it arrives, its always my last one because I just want to finish off the week with something I can't wait to get to and hate when its done. Hands down the most improved character. Even titles I stuggle with like Hawkman keep me wanting to see more. Of all the new 52 titles, I can only say Men of War was the biggest disappointment with how each issue seemed to open in the middle of some story and end before it was done to only go through that again. I was a little surprised that its last issue was basically a issue of Frankenstien but it was a nice surprise since that title hadn't done that before. And with the Wave 2 books, there are six titles I'm looking forward to rediscovering new and old characters all over again. This is the best time for me to be a fan.

  6. #51
    It's Lexrules... GET HIM. Lexrules's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fate's Faith View Post
    Well, I will go with Superman since I know that's one of you favorites. Action Comics #1 presented a Superman I was familiar with but never actually read on a monthly basis. It was a change in attitude that reminded me of the past but in the present and also new in a way because of that. I knew the new suit was to come and did in Superman #1. But this was different than Bryne's reintroduction. While his history may have changed then, he was still the same personality. But this was a different personality that would or should tell a different story going forward. It just seemed fresh while also a historical remembrance of what used to be. It took me longer to warm up to the Flash for instance since he's been dead to me for years now and Wally was the Flash. Its a great looking book that also seems to have a new take of the character. I remembered when his first run was cancelled and it wasn't what I'd call an exciting period for the character. Not that I thought he should die but it did help make the death more acceptable. And that's not to say everything was wonderful. Some titles took a time to grab me. Red Hood is one of my favorite books now but at first, I was suspicous that this was even going to last six issues with me. In fact the whole Batman family of books are greatly enjoyed by me. I absolutely love Gotham City and its inhabitants more than ever. Of course Wonder Woman has torn down much of her backstory and resulted in a character that whose adventures I cannot wait to read each month. On the weeks it arrives, its always my last one because I just want to finish off the week with something I can't wait to get to and hate when its done. Hands down the most improved character. Even titles I stuggle with like Hawkman keep me wanting to see more. Of all the new 52 titles, I can only say Men of War was the biggest disappointment with how each issue seemed to open in the middle of some story and end before it was done to only go through that again. I was a little surprised that its last issue was basically a issue of Frankenstien but it was a nice surprise since that title hadn't done that before. And with the Wave 2 books, there are six titles I'm looking forward to rediscovering new and old characters all over again. This is the best time for me to be a fan.
    Thank you for the great post Fate. I am happy you are enjoying it.

  7. #52

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    For the really old fans, I think this is more similar to what they remember from their childhood. Legacy heroes are more of a nineties thing.
    Perfect humility dispenses with modesty.

  8. #53
    Senior Member CBikle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lexrules View Post
    But they are dropping as we speak. Also once Morrison leaves will those number drop like a brick or are they really Superman fans and not just Morrison followers.
    Right, also, let's remember that prior to Flashback, the Superman titles were heavily interlinked and suffered by having 2 of their big name writers abandon the books right in the middle of their convoluted story arcs (Johns left during the New Krypton arc and JMS left during "Grounded" - both of these storylines had big potential that was squandered).

    Morrison's current Superman run is self-contained and seemingly not riddled with tie-ins to other events like the Superman titles were pre-Flashpoint)

    Not to take away anything from Morrison (who is a great writer), but he was provided with stable ground and a lack of editorial chaos that Roberson, Cornell and Robinson hadn't been given.

  9. #54
    Veteran Member AdamYJ's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Buried Alien View Post
    Depends on *how* old. For even OLDER fans (like myself), having Barry Allen back as Flash, Hal Jordan back as the main GL, Barbara Gordon back as Batgirl, etc., the New 52 feels almost like a gift.

    I say "almost" because gifts don't come with a price to the recipient, but losing Wally West and others was a part of the deal of receiving this "gift."

    Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)
    There are the older heroes, sure. But it's not really written in the same style as they used to be written in. I've been kind of disenchanted with super-heroes lately but I've also gone back and started reading stuff from the '70s and '80s. Man is that old stuff great. I wasn't even around for it and I miss the old style.
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  10. #55
    The Dominoed Daredoll batGRRRl4ever's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Buried Alien View Post
    Depends on *how* old. For even OLDER fans (like myself), having Barry Allen back as Flash, Hal Jordan back as the main GL, Barbara Gordon back as Batgirl, etc., the New 52 feels almost like a gift.
    Don't forget we got Helena Wayne back, the original Huntress as well!
    Pull list:
    Batgirl, Inhuman, Justice League Beyond 2.0, Letter 44, She-Hulk, SM/WW, Swamp Thing, Ultimate FF (lol, 5 of my 8 titles all written by SOULE)

  11. #56
    Senior Member CBikle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by batGRRRl4ever View Post
    Don't forget we got Helena Wayne back, the original Huntress as well!
    Not really...

  12. #57
    Junior Member Sk8maven's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by batGRRRl4ever View Post
    Don't forget we got Helena Wayne back, the original Huntress as well!
    Sort of. But not exactly the same Helena Wayne. The original version was never Robin, and snuck behind her father's back to go into costume (he eventually figured it out, because you can't fool Batman indefinitely). We don't yet know what other changes have been applied.
    Everything I state is JUST MY OPINION. Take what you like and leave the rest.

  13. #58

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    The only people who think that "old" fans got back what they wanted are people who weren't around at that time, "back in the day" as the saying goes. Since DiDio tries to pass himself off as an old comics fan, it would seem strange if he actually thought any of this was a "gift" to old fans. I can't believe he really thinks that, because to be a publisher you have to have some intelligence.

    Exactly what they are trying to do I can't quite make out. Part of it seems to be keeping brands alive. The content of those brands doesn't really matter to DC--content probably doesn't have any market value. I guess they are trying to protect the "Barry Allen" brand, the "Earth 2" brand.

  14. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bill Lange View Post
    Not really an assumption, just been around a few message boards and comic store to catch some of this. Let me clear up that I don't believe all old fans feel this way. Just a few that I have talked to.

    Your answer is one I can understand. DC is a business, no matter how much some of us like to think differently, they have to turn a profit. The comic readership is getting older, and they took drastic measures to fix this. I believe they could have done a few things differently, but I see no malice in their decisions at any point and time.

    What would you have done differently to make the switch over to the New 52 more acceptable to you?
    I understand it's a business but you didn't have to get rid and ruin so many characters in the process.

    What was the mess done to Static? Mr. Terrific? Starfire? Power Girl? Firestorm? DC screwed themselves when they let bad editors and writers and big events hold books hostage.


    How many books could a person read in the old DC that weren't having to change story lines because everyone had to get screwed over by Blackest Night, 52 and Flashpoint?

    Also yes your readers are getting older, however you are STILL not trying to get new readers. Sooner or later you have to move out of the comic book store to where fans are.

    I was in a Barnes & Nobles buy Miles Morales's trade and guess what I saw KIDS all over the manga section. They weren't even looking at the graphic novels. Sooner or later you are going have to figure out how to get them to pay attention to comics.

    Especially those Young Justice fans who get might get interested in reading the comics-only to butchered down versions or worst certain characters not around for whatever reason.

  15. #60

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    I'm a long-time fan (but still relatively young--I'm only 27), but I haven't really been bothered by the New 52 at all. In fact, I'm glad it happened. I think it should've been done a long time ago actually.

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