Re: Black Widow and Joss Whedon

[kelly_warrior_princess]

See, already we disagree because I saw the Firefly movie before I watched the series and loved it.

Also, if Whedon said he does not get WW I wonder if that statement was made after his script was picked apart.Could be he was convinced into thinking he did not understand WW by others. In this movie he writes 7 very different heroes and others and does thsm all very well. :)

I think what Whedon meant when he said he didn't get Wonder Woman, is that he wrote her as an actual person, with flaws and foibles... An WW fandom predominately reads her as an allegory for some political position, or radical idealogue, or representative of some ideal without flaw, or worse yet as a stand in for every single woman ever. Whedon writes characters & WW fans seem to predominately want "Feminist Jesus." Those are two distinct wants/desires & are completely 100% incompatible with each other.

[Cowtools]

Oh no, the arguments were as follows:
- Wonder Woman doesn't deserve her own movie because her fans suck so much

I think what Whedon meant when he said he didn't get Wonder Woman, is that he wrote her as an actual person, with flaws and foibles... An WW fandom predominately reads her as an allegory for some political position, or radical idealogue, or representative of some ideal without flaw, or worse yet as a stand in for every single woman ever. Whedon writes characters & WW fans seem to predominately want "Feminist Jesus." Those are two distinct wants/desires & are completely 100% incompatible with each other.

I told ya.

[Dr. Hurt]

I think what Whedon meant when he said he didn't get Wonder Woman, is that he wrote her as an actual person, with flaws and foibles... An WW fandom predominately reads her as an allegory for some political position, or radical idealogue, or representative of some ideal without flaw, or worse yet as a stand in for every single woman ever. Whedon writes characters & WW fans seem to predominately want "Feminist Jesus." Those are two distinct wants/desires & are completely 100% incompatible with each other.

If that's the case, then i'm siding with Whedon.

New 52's imperfect WW has been great. I want to read/watch a story about a character, not an infallible idea walking around.

[kelly_warrior_princess]

I told ya.

No. It was getting a movie & then all of the WW fandom complained, till eventually it was shut down at the primary writing stage (as many movies are). I mean the movie could have been a big steaming pile of doo-doo, but we'll never know now, because it was foo-fooed to death... As was the two previous TV shows: Heck one of those shows was killed before the advent of the internet, which in its self kind of says something. The fact that the fandom "sucks" as you put it isn't why the character shouldn't get a movie, its one of the reasons why previous attempts have failed: The horse pulls the cart, the cart does not pull the horse.

If that's the case, then i'm siding with Whedon.

New 52's imperfect WW has been great. I want to read/watch a story about a character, not an infallible idea walking around.

While i don't care much for the new version, its for completely different reasons then why i didn't like the previous version. I'm not a great fan of the dark gods reimagined thing: Never have been, probably never will be. For some reason as a narrative point it just rubs me the wrong way: I think possibly because of what it says about the larger campaign universe at large. Its the same issue i had with the angel guy in JLA back in the day. But at least Az is trying to humanise her & that i can appreciate in theory, if not in execution.

My guess is Whedon did exactly the same & then the WW fandom threw a bit of a tantrum about it... Which is suprising because that is totally unheard of for the WW fandom at large

[carabas]

But they are making some superhero movies. It's just that until now all they've done is hand over whatever franchise to whoever director they thought might make them money, regardess of how stupid his pitch was.

Everybody is makin some superhero films. And this is pretty much how everybody is going about it.

Marvel's the only one with a complete film studio set up do do nothing but churn out superhero francise after franchise. And the only one in any legal position to do so. Except WB, but they just don't seem to be interested in sinking that much of their resources in just on genre.

[kelly_warrior_princess]

Everybody is makin some superhero films. And this is pretty much how everybody is going about it.

Everybody is not though. Some people are, and those few people are being overshadowed by a sparse handful of studios making super hero movies. Just a minor correction, but i think its an important distinction to make.

Marvel's the only one with a complete film studio set up do do nothing but churn out superhero francise after franchise. And the only one in any legal position to do so. Except WB, but they just don't seem to be interested in sinking that much of their resources in just on genre.

An understandable really. Marvels plan utilised a lot of start up capital. I'm happy it worked out for them, but WB would be pretty silly to sink that much money into a sub studio just to produce a genre with a history of pretty sketchy returns (especially given the hit or miss nature of there own previous attempts).

Personally i am happy that WB isn't directly competing with Marvel Studios to flood the market... Because i really don't want Superheroes to be our generations version of ninjas.

*shudder*

for those of you around in the late 80's & early 90's i'm sure you all remember with differing levels of fondness, then ninja period in movies.

[brettc1]

If that's the case, then i'm siding with Whedon.

New 52's imperfect WW has been great. I want to read/watch a story about a character, not an infallible idea walking around.

Here is an interesting question though? How is Azz's Wonder Woman imperfect?

[Dr. Hurt]

Here is an interesting question though? How is Azz's Wonder Woman imperfect?

She's brash and quick to judge, she speaks in a casual manner and doesnt sound like the Queen, she doesnt give speeches about her ideals as if she's the ideal's avatar herself, she just talks about them, she makes mistakes, she is lied to, etc.

[wagthedog]

She's brash and quick to judge, she speaks in a casual manner and doesnt sound like the Queen, she doesnt give speeches about her ideals as if she's the ideal's avatar herself, she just talks about them, she makes mistakes, she is lied to, etc.

A 'perfect' Wonder Woman could also be lied to. The 'perfect' Wonder Woman prior to nu52 had also made mistakes.

[brettc1]

She's brash and quick to judge, she speaks in a casual manner and doesnt sound like the Queen, she doesnt give speeches about her ideals as if she's the ideal's avatar herself, she just talks about them, she makes mistakes, she is lied to, etc.

A 'perfect' Wonder Woman could also be lied to. The 'perfect' Wonder Woman prior to nu52 had also made mistakes.

And this is of course what I was getting at.

People think when they see WW fans talks about Diana being perfect, that she is without flaw. Maybe some fans think that. But for me it is more the case that Diana strives for perfection. That is, or used to be, the Amazon ideal - the quest for excellence, be it physically, intellectually, spritiually or morally. Diana is perfect not in her ability to attain a flawless state but rather in her devotion to trying. This is what they were getting at [Hera help me] A League of One.



For Wonder Woman perfection is in the attempt, not in the achievement. Recognizing failings and flaws and confronting them constantly. This is what I think Etta was talking about when she told Genocide there is no way to defeat Diana. She is simply unwaveringly devoted to trying to do the right thing, to being the best person she can be. No matter how much you put on her, she will fight through. I think Azz is taking that approach as well but it is IMO incorrect to say he is the one who is finally doing it. Diana has been like that for a very long time.

[kelly_warrior_princess]

Here is an interesting question though? How is Azz's Wonder Woman imperfect?

Its not that she's imperfect, its that she is perfectly human, with all the foibles & hopes that includes. Its that she is not some sort of ideal, some concept made flesh who is constantly spouting off soundbites from that ideal. Look at the young justice version of Wonder Woman for instance... The first time she opens her mouth to say something (as far as i can remember) was episode 22, Agendas. An almost the first thing out of her mouth? An appeal to affirmative action.

Its a case of being the personification of an ideal, versus just being a person. An thats been WW's biggest flaw in essentially any and all mediums, including comics. Because if your character is nothing but a very thinly veiled analogue for a political movement or an ideal, then anything negative that happens to that character is taken in the same way. Or to put it more clearly: Superman is killed & everyone was like "Oh my god, they can't do that to Superman... I must read more." If you did that to Wonder Woman the WW Fandom would be all "DC just killed Feminism. This is WiR to the max, because DC is sexist: Lets all burn Didio in effigy & write articles about how its all indicative of the patriachal standards at DC & how this is a rape on all women."

Thats what he means by making her imperfect. Possibly a poor choice of words, as its not that she's any more imperfect then before, its just that when she fails its not suddenly a national tradegy for 50% of the worlds population... Or so the fandom would have us believe. The character can move forward as a CHARACTER, rather then as a personification of an ideal. If the character has a romantic attatchment, thats not some sort of hidden message trying to co-opt female agency, it'd just be a writer writing an interesting narrative.

Thats what the difference is. Its not imperfections, its just the difference between being a fully realised character & being a thinly veiled stand in/personification of a pet ideal.

An since this is about the Avengers, i just watched it today. Black Widow is a great character, but i doubt she's a strong enough character to have her own solo movie either. I say bring on She-Hulk.

[Dr. Hurt]

Its not that she's imperfect, its that she is perfectly human, with all the foibles & hopes that includes. Its that she is not some sort of ideal, some concept made flesh who is constantly spouting off soundbites from that ideal. Look at the young justice version of Wonder Woman for instance... The first time she opens her mouth to say something (as far as i can remember) was episode 22, Agendas. An almost the first thing out of her mouth? An appeal to affirmative action.

Its a case of being the personification of an ideal, versus just being a person. An thats been WW's biggest flaw in essentially any and all mediums, including comics. Because if your character is nothing but a very thinly veiled analogue for a political movement or an ideal, then anything negative that happens to that character is taken in the same way. Or to put it more clearly: Superman is killed & everyone was like "Oh my god, they can't do that to Superman... I must read more." If you did that to Wonder Woman the WW Fandom would be all "DC just killed Feminism. This is WiR to the max, because DC is sexist: Lets all burn Didio in effigy & write articles about how its all indicative of the patriachal standards at DC & how this is a rape on all women."

Thats what he means by making her imperfect. Possibly a poor choice of words, as its not that she's any more imperfect then before, its just that when she fails its not suddenly a national tradegy for 50% of the worlds population... Or so the fandom would have us believe. The character can move forward as a CHARACTER, rather then as a personification of an ideal. If the character has a romantic attatchment, thats not some sort of hidden message trying to co-opt female agency, it'd just be a writer writing an interesting narrative.

Thats what the difference is. Its not imperfections, its just the difference between being a fully realised character & being a thinly veiled stand in/personification of a pet ideal.

An since this is about the Avengers, i just watched it today. Black Widow is a great character, but i doubt she's a strong enough character to have her own solo movie either. I say bring on She-Hulk.

Couldnt have said it better myself.

[psyshot]

Its not that she's imperfect, its that she is perfectly human, with all the foibles & hopes that includes. Its that she is not some sort of ideal, some concept made flesh who is constantly spouting off soundbites from that ideal. Look at the young justice version of Wonder Woman for instance... The first time she opens her mouth to say something (as far as i can remember) was episode 22, Agendas. An almost the first thing out of her mouth? An appeal to affirmative action.

Its a case of being the personification of an ideal, versus just being a person. An thats been WW's biggest flaw in essentially any and all mediums, including comics. Because if your character is nothing but a very thinly veiled analogue for a political movement or an ideal, then anything negative that happens to that character is taken in the same way. Or to put it more clearly: Superman is killed & everyone was like "Oh my god, they can't do that to Superman... I must read more." If you did that to Wonder Woman the WW Fandom would be all "DC just killed Feminism. This is WiR to the max, because DC is sexist: Lets all burn Didio in effigy & write articles about how its all indicative of the patriachal standards at DC & how this is a rape on all women."

She's brash and quick to judge, she speaks in a casual manner and doesnt sound like the Queen, she doesnt give speeches about her ideals as if she's the ideal's avatar herself, she just talks about them, she makes mistakes, she is lied to, etc.

I don't follow you guys. I haven't seen the episode you're talking about, but in the comics, I remember her being imperfect pre-flashpoint (like losing her temper, etc...). I also don't remember her giving speeches all the time (could you point me to such a speech? maybe I didn't notice it before). So how is she different now?

[Nyssane]

An since this is about the Avengers, i just watched it today. Black Widow is a great character, but i doubt she's a strong enough character to have her own solo movie either. I say bring on She-Hulk.

God, yes.

[Eliseu Gouveia]

Black Widow is a great character, but i doubt she's a strong enough character to have her own solo movie.

She can´t be worse than Salt, Hannah or Haywire.