Re: Black Widow and Joss Whedon

[brettc1]

Having her get tied up, only to break out and bust heads.

No, that's not Wonder Woman at all.

Yeah, thats the first thing I thought as well.

Scroll through to 30 seconds.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M_blOQEu9ws

[Mecegirl]

I think something that is often overlooked is that Joss Whedon rights a LOT of female characters other than Buffy. There is Willow, Fred, Faith, Cordelia, Inara, Cayely, Zoe, River - all women and all different. Some may share similar quirks and personality traits, but you could say the same about Cap and Thor being honarable brawlers, or Tony Stark and Loki being irreverant.

I wouldn't say that any of them work the same way that Wonder Woman does though, or that all of them are written well (but that is a matter of personal preference of course). None of those characters change my mind. Personally I have yet to see anything from him (including what I have heard about his WW movie pitch) that convinces me that he could handle a character like Wonder Woman. I'm not saying that WW is some higher form of character, I just do not think that it is his niche.

Having her get tied up, only to break out and bust heads.

No, that's not Wonder Woman at all.

It is the play on expectations that may not work. Especially considering more recent incarnations of WW's character. In the Black Widow chair scene BW was using the fact that her captors were underestimating her to gain information and Whedon was using our expectations of a damsel in distress scene to make BW's victory more awesome. But it is very rare for someone to doubt WW's prowess, and when they do she puts them in their place near immediately. You don't just tie Wonder Woman to a chair. You get the strongest metals available because she's Wonder Woman, and then you run because it won't work anyway. Within the DC universe if she steps in a room people take notice and not just because she is beautiful, like Superman(just to clarify I'm not saying she's just a female superman) she inspires awe.

[americanwonder]

Well, that is exactly what the people behind the failed tv series are, partly, blaming that on: a truelly massive negative vibe on any and all Wonder Woman projects as soon as single name attached to it is released.

Riiiiiight. Because it makes much more sense to put the blame on folks who had no actual involvement. Heaven forbid they own the fact that they put together one crappy costume. Brilliant! But then, if my message board posts are so influencial, why are they the ones getting paid for their creative input? ;)

Whedon gets credit for being good at writing female characters but he tends to excel at a specific type of female character. In some ways Black Widow fits the type of character Whedon is good at writing. IMO a poster at the Marvel boards explained why his Widow worked very well...

It is certainly possible to take Wonder Woman in that direction, but I just don't see that dynamic (or what he has done for characters like Buffy or River) working for a character like Wonder Woman who is supposed to be a larger than life super-heroine.

From my experience, I agree with you, Mecegirl. For example, I think Whedon could be great for a Runaways movie, but I'm still not sold that the Whedon that worked on WW was up to the task (I think he's probably better now than he was then).

[Mecegirl]

sounds like he is perfect fit for Birds of Prey movie.

I could see how that could work.

From my experience, I agree with you, Mecegirl. For example, I think Whedon could be great for a Runaways movie, but I'm still not sold that the Whedon that worked on WW was up to the task (I think he's probably better now than he was then).

A Whedon Runaways movie....*drool*.

[BeccaBlast]

I may be the first here to say it, but I didn't particularly like the chair scene -- it felt like something I had seen two or three times in the first season of Alias alone -- and I don't think I'm the only one watching the movie that felt that.

A minor quibble, but there it is. Certainly nothing to hold against Whedon's track record, as poorly as his WW ideas turned out. I'd still trust him with her more than a LOT of directors out there -- but I would love it if Brad Bird were attached to the project somehow.

[kelly_warrior_princess]

Riiiiiight. Because it makes much more sense to put the blame on folks who had no actual involvement.

No offense meant, but the general public does have invovlement in the project. Who do you think got the most recent Wonder Woman show cancelled at pilot? It was members of the general public, based around our own demographic of fans. So the fandom & people the fandom have pissed off.

but I'm still not sold that the Whedon that worked on WW was up to the task (I think he's probably better now than he was then).

I'm still not sold on our ability to say that. Unless you have a copy of his script, you can't even start to make that assumption, as you lack any grounds to make it other then arguing from ignorance.

I may be the first here to say it, but I didn't particularly like the chair scene -- it felt like something I had seen two or three times in the first season of Alias alone -- and I don't think I'm the only one watching the movie that felt that.

*shudders*

That show was terrible. But isn't that also like saying "oh an avengers film, that seems kind of uneccasary, given how often i've seen these characters in an Avengers comic."

Certainly nothing to hold against Whedon's track record, as poorly as his WW ideas turned out.

Again i ask that people stop making that statement: Whedons WW ideas could have been revolutionary, or completely shit: We have no way of knowing with out seeing them & unless you have a copy of his screen play thats unlikely ever to happen.

[americanwonder]

No offense meant, but the general public does have invovlement in the project. Who do you think got the most recent Wonder Woman show cancelled at pilot? It was members of the general public, based around our own demographic of fans. So the fandom & people the fandom have pissed off.

Right. It's always the customer's fault. Couldn't possibly have anything to do with them making a lackluster product? Please.

I'm still not sold on our ability to say that. Unless you have a copy of his script, you can't even start to make that assumption, as you lack any grounds to make it other then arguing from ignorance.

My ability is just fine, thank you, and I don't care if you're sold on it. See, I never said I'd read the script. Please feel free to quote me if I did say I'd read it but just don't remember. I also never said the script was wonderful, nor that it was terrible. In fact, I never commented on the script itself. Pro or con or indifferent or whatever - we're all ignorant of the script, no? Yet, we still talk about what might-have-been.

Here, I'm simply saying that I think Whedon has become better at his craft since his WW days. I also dare say there's a good chance that he'd agree with me on that.

[BeccaBlast]

*shudders*

That show was terrible. But isn't that also like saying "oh an avengers film, that seems kind of uneccasary, given how often i've seen these characters in an Avengers comic."

Sorry, don't see the connection at all. I remark that a particular scene commented upon by others left me cold because I felt it was something I had seen several times before. How does that translate into saying the whole movie was unnecessary?

Again i ask that people stop making that statement: Whedons WW ideas could have been revolutionary, or completely shit: We have no way of knowing with out seeing them & unless you have a copy of his screen play thats unlikely ever to happen.

I think you misread me; I have no more idea about the content of his ideas than you do -- but the outcome, how they turned out? Unfortunately, that we do know -- the movie didn't get made. That's a poor outcome, especially for Whedon.

[AnthonyJ]

No offense meant, but the general public does have invovlement in the project. Who do you think got the most recent Wonder Woman show cancelled at pilot? It was members of the general public, based around our own demographic of fans.

Eh. Bad mood from the fans wouldn't help, but reasonable responses from a focus group could have overcome that. There's always going to be a certain number of people unhappy with anything you do.

[jsrichardson1]

Watching this movie (which was AMAZING btw) I couldn't help but think "This is what Diana Prince should be like!" I wish that Wedon's ideas for Wonder Woman were taken seriously and were more along the lines of his ideas for Black Widow and the Avengers

[DrCosmic]

Everyone who's read the Whedon Woman script said it was revolutionary. WB still won't let *anyone* talk about the details. If it sucked, they wouldn't still be protecting that script. Plus, the fact that everything he's done before and since has been great to incredible, and that WB has shown to be dull as a box of rocks... the natural conclusion is that the issue lies with the studio.

I think you misread me; I have no more idea about the content of his ideas than you do -- but the outcome, how they turned out? Unfortunately, that we do know -- the movie didn't get made. That's a poor outcome, especially for Whedon.

I misread you as well, so perhaps you misspoke? You're referring to his efforts/idea to make a movie. The outcome of *that* idea was poor. But by using "ideas" without qualifying, you are grammatically referring to the story, which may have turned out great, even if not released.

[AnthonyJ]

Everyone who's read the Whedon Woman script said it was revolutionary. WB still won't let *anyone* talk about the details. If it sucked, they wouldn't still be protecting that script.

Sure they would be. Not releasing rejected scripts is normal behavior. They might not even be legally able to release it. I have no idea if Whedon's script was good, he's produced both excellent material and self-indulgent crap.

[Lafanboy]

No one has offered any concrete proof here that Whedon's WW script sucked. If anything, I'm more interested than ever to read it.

I remember reading Whedon was paid 7 million buckeroos for this script, and got to keep the money even though his vision was ultimately rejected. So DC/WB probably owns the script and could dust it off, make any necessary tweaks and greenlight WW. They don't need to start from scratch. And, after The Avengers wild success, being able to say "WW, written by Joss Whedon..." could only help the movie, even if Whedon didn't direct.

[Sacred Knight]

That's because no one's saying Whedon's script sucked. People are saying the ideas they read that he had sucked. There's a difference. No one read the script so no one can make a critique of that. But some of his ideas did leak out, and thus everyone was free then and is free now to form an opinion on those individual ideas. Many didn't like them, nothing wrong with that.

[americanwonder]

No one has offered any concrete proof here that Whedon's WW script sucked...

I'm pretty sure no one has tried.

(Sacred Knight is faster than a not so fast americanwonder and said it better, too )