Re: Black Widow and Joss Whedon

[EricAD]

There's been articles about Whedon's ideas for Wonder Woman. He found her lacking in "humanity" and hard to relate to. Something that he would not have said at all, if he had paid even the slightest attention to any of the early Perez issues. He wanted WW to suffer several bullets in the chest so that she would be brought down to everyone else's level, and learn what it means to be human and vulnerable. He also wanted to make up his own original villain, and sat on his script for over a year without ever being able to complete it.

Anyone saying that we missed out on Whedon needs to realize that he was working on Wonder Woman six years ago. It's great that he found a project more suited to him in the time since then, succeeding with The Avengers. I saw The Avengers a couple days ago, and it was glorious. Right up there with The Dark Knight as the best modern superhero film. And unlike TDK, it's that damn good while embracing the light and fun tone that appeals to adults and kids alike. But just because he's doing well now, in the year 2012, doesn't mean that he had a good grasp of Wonder Woman back in 2006 or before.

Wonder Woman lacking in humanity is a very, very common complaint, and aside from a few creators (yes, Perez being one of them) there are not a lot of creators who have managed to rectify that notion over the years. He read the Perez stuff, and also said he enjoyed a lot of the Rucka stuff (he mentioned having read them as research when writing the initial script) Having your hero be brought down to everyone's level to learn what it means to be more human and vulnerable is simply classic "Hero's Journey 101". Superman lost Pa Kent (in the movie) realizing that he can't be God, Spidey loses Uncle Ben, etc. I think Whedon understood she needed to start out in a place where she's not perfect and finish out the story as a fully realized hero. People love to see characters "become" heroes. It is human nature.

And I LIKED the notion of her getting shot in the chest, because first off, It establishes that a few stray bullets aren't going to kill her, just annoy her. I always hated the fact that she can go toe to toe with Superman but a bullet would kill her. It should just annoy her at most. As for making up his own original villain, let's be honest...Diana does NOT have the world's best villains. She has a handful of good ones, but none that simply NEED to be in a movie. I do know his villains were going to be tied into Greek Mythology, so to me that is being true to the comics. Certainly more than the old tv show or the rejected pilot last year, where all the Greek Myth stuff was missing.

And lastly, Whedon DID complete two drafts of the script over a period of two years, and has said so much in interviews (it was one of these scripts that Bruce Timm wanted to use for the Wonder Woman animated movie, till Warners said no) When Warners rejected both scripts, they said come back to him with a whole new outline instead of another draft. But there are two Wonder Woman scripts out there. It isn't like he did nothing for two years.

[americanwonder]

... Having your hero be brought down to everyone's level to learn what it means to be more human and vulnerable is simply classic "Hero's Journey 101"...

I get the classic Hero's Journey 101, but I think it can be a fine line to walk before you change a character and/or make them not very likable enough to care where they end up by the end. Trying to make Diana "more human" (a phrase I really don't like) can quickly turn to making Diana not-Diana. So, while I'm fine with Diana on a hero's journey in theroy, I did worry that we actually weren't going to get Diana, just some other personality going by that name.

... And I LIKED the notion of her getting shot in the chest, because first off, It establishes that a few stray bullets aren't going to kill her, just annoy her...

I didn't like the idea at first; at the time, it sounded like he was going for something too Wolverine to fit WW, imo. But, over time, I do think the idea has some potential.

Eric, if I may, you seem more well-read on the Whedon version of WW than I am - what else did you like about it?

[nightforce]

Let me get this straight, are SOME you guys citing that the reason the Whedon Wonder Woman wasn't made on the "
RABID Wonder Woman fans"? if so I am laughing so hard at that simplistic notion that fans want to blame fans for a movie not being made LoL LoL LoL LoL

But yeah let's not blame writers block LoL

[Predator jp]

And lastly, Whedon DID complete two drafts of the script over a period of two years, and has said so much in interviews (it was one of these scripts that Bruce Timm wanted to use for the Wonder Woman animated movie, till Warners said no) When Warners rejected both scripts, they said come back to him with a whole new outline instead of another draft. But there are two Wonder Woman scripts out there. It isn't like he did nothing for two years.

if Bruce Timm wanted to use it, it must be good.

[AnthonyJ]

But yeah let's not blame writers block LoL

Given DCs track record with plots (see Green Lantern), the fact that a writer failed to produce a plot that DC found acceptable is not too meaningful. It might mean it was bad. It also might mean that the people in charge of approving the script are idiots (it is possible for both of these to be true at once).

[Vic Vega]

^^^
This.

Whoever was in charge of letting the Green Lantern script get filmed is no judge of simple competance let alone quality.

A horde of dudes with REALLY BAD TASTE in scripts 86'd Whedon's WW script and we are gonna blame him?

[brettc1]

Given DCs track record with plots (see Green Lantern), the fact that a writer failed to produce a plot that DC found acceptable is not too meaningful. It might mean it was bad. It also might mean that the people in charge of approving the script are idiots (it is possible for both of these to be true at once).

It's possilbe DC was not satisfied because they saw too little potential for the toy line.

That more than anything is probably why films with male heroes will get priority. You just cant seem to get the girls in the 8-12 year old demographic to buy the same number of action figures, vehicle playsets, and light up weapons with sound effects.

[In my head I can already see the velcro secured plastic silver bracers, with flashing light effects and bullet deflecting sounds.]

[carabas]

Let me get this straight, are SOME you guys citing that the reason the Whedon Wonder Woman wasn't made on the "
RABID Wonder Woman fans"? if so I am laughing so hard at that simplistic notion that fans want to blame fans for a movie not being made LoL LoL LoL LoL

Well, that is exactly what the people behind the failed tv series are, partly, blaming that on: a truelly massive negative vibe on any and all Wonder Woman projects as soon as single name attached to it is released.

[Mecegirl]

Whedon gets credit for being good at writing female characters but he tends to excel at a specific type of female character. In some ways Black Widow fits the type of character Whedon is good at writing. IMO a poster at the Marvel boards explained why his Widow worked very well.
(referring to the Widow chair scene)

It's a very Whedonesque scene. The basic concept behind Buffy was doing that scene from a horror movie, where a perky blond teenage girl wanders into a dark alley and gets eaten by something that goes bump in the night— and then reversing it, having the teenage girl just wail into the monster. But it plays on that expectation. The scene from the Avengers works on a similar premise, it's deliberately setting up a damsel-in-distress scenario, deliberately setting up this sexual peril, in order to turn the whole thing around. But it's not a coincidence she's dressed in an evening wear and that her captors are commenting on her appearance, or that the way she defeats them all is by basically destroying her bonds and using them as a weapon. I think she also chokes some dude with a chain in that sequence? It's all deliberate, all symbolic. And by making Natasha definitely pretty, calling attention to the sexy elements, I think Whedon is, you know, meant to make us question that at least a bit, the sexiness, while at the same time it is still invoking this sexiness, in a way that never would be invoked for Captain America.

I think that sort of turnaround is something Natasha's 616 canon plays a lot with— Natasha isn't a gender neutral character, she is someone who often gets mistaken for just a pretty face, and uses that to her advantage. The element of seduction/intimacy is standard fare in spy stories, even with male protagonists, and so it makes sense her character delves into that stuff, too. But I think that sort of character is only really successful if there's more to their motivations/existence. The more her M.O. is "get tied up sexily only to take the bad guys down" the more the emphasis becomes just "get tied up sexily", you know? But I think in the film it was handled pretty smartly, because we saw Natasha in a lot more context. Her role in the final battle was stealing an flying motorcycle thing and figuring out how to close the portal, not like, distracting the gross aliens with her sexuality, and that's where Whedon succeeded where a lot of others have failed.

It is certainly possible to take Wonder Woman in that direction, but I just don't see that dynamic (or what he has done for characters like Buffy or River) working for a character like Wonder Woman who is supposed to be a larger than life super-heroine.

[Stanlos]

Here's the amaing thing

There IS no best part!

It is just all good all the time. There are action and non-action sequences, sure, and the big fight in New York is spectactacular. But I was enjoying the movie so much prior to that I was not sitting there thinking "I cant wait for the fight to start." And there is certainly action all the way through it. This movie had EVERYTHING.

And definitely do NOT leave when the credits roll

As for Black Widow specifically, she is just as awewome as the other heroes in her own way. I did not feel she was dwarfed by Iron Man or Cap or even Thor and Hulk. From her first appearence and in every scene where she appears is consistently impressive - and not just as eye candy. She is smart, brave, determined and definitely kick-ass dangerous! Whedon gives the character her props and she really shines as an equal alongside her teammates.

Thanks for your post above, Brett! I went back for a second viewing and this time stayed for the credits. Um, WOW! It was the most amazing feeling seeing that! It was like watching a George Perez drawing come to life!!!!! I cannot wait for the inevitable sequel!!!!!

[Predator jp]

Whedon gets credit for being good at writing female characters but he tends to excel at a specific type of female character. In some ways Black Widow fits the type of character Whedon is good at writing. IMO a poster at the Marvel boards explained why his Widow worked very well.
(referring to the Widow chair scene)



It is certainly possible to take Wonder Woman in that direction, but I just don't see that dynamic (or what he has done for characters like Buffy or River) working for a character like Wonder Woman who is supposed to be a larger than life super-heroine.

sounds like he is perfect fit for Birds of Prey movie.

[Stanlos]

I heart Whedon's catalogue mostly. But the Trashcan lid bracelets idea sent me packing.

[brettc1]

Whedon gets credit for being good at writing female characters but he tends to excel at a specific type of female character. In some ways Black Widow fits the type of character Whedon is good at writing. IMO a poster at the Marvel boards explained why his Widow worked very well.
(referring to the Widow chair scene)

It is certainly possible to take Wonder Woman in that direction, but I just don't see that dynamic (or what he has done for characters like Buffy or River) working for a character like Wonder Woman who is supposed to be a larger than life super-heroine.

I think something that is often overlooked is that Joss Whedon rights a LOT of female characters other than Buffy. There is Willow, Fred, Faith, Cordelia, Inara, Cayely, Zoe, River - all women and all different. Some may share similar quirks and personality traits, but you could say the same about Cap and Thor being honarable brawlers, or Tony Stark and Loki being irreverant.

[Arvandor]

Whedon gets credit for being good at writing female characters but he tends to excel at a specific type of female character. In some ways Black Widow fits the type of character Whedon is good at writing. IMO a poster at the Marvel boards explained why his Widow worked very well.
(referring to the Widow chair scene)



It is certainly possible to take Wonder Woman in that direction, but I just don't see that dynamic (or what he has done for characters like Buffy or River) working for a character like Wonder Woman who is supposed to be a larger than life super-heroine.

Having her get tied up, only to break out and bust heads.

No, that's not Wonder Woman at all.

[brettc1]

I heart Whedon's catalogue mostly. But the Trashcan lid bracelets idea sent me packing.

You mean like the trashcan lid shield in Captain America: The First Avenger? Oddly I dont remember anyone saying that hated that.