BOSTON COMIC CON NEW 52 PANEL, WW related

**SteveGus** · 04-23-2012, 05:20 PM

Originally Posted by Reginleif

is that Seperatism?

It's a reference to a fairly famous poem by Francois Villon: Mais ou sont les neiges d'antan? ("Where are the snows of yesteryear?") , from the Ballade des dames du temps jadis ("Ballade of the ladies of times past.")

**Reginleif** · 04-23-2012, 05:46 PM

Originally Posted by SteveGus

It's a reference to a fairly famous poem by Francois Villon: Mais ou sont les neiges d'antan? ("Where are the snows of yesteryear?") , from the Ballade des dames du temps jadis ("Ballade of the ladies of times past.")

yes, but the language...it is written in the same manner as theirs...I believe its called Separatism...

**SteveGus** · 04-23-2012, 05:50 PM

Originally Posted by Reginleif

yes, but the language...it is written in the same manner as theirs...I believe its called Separatism...

Oui.... je forgot que vous are Canadian. Je speakerai Canadian jusqu'a here on out.

**BeccaBlast** · 04-23-2012, 07:27 PM

Originally Posted by Dr. Hurt

Hopefully the origin. We've had hints that it's not exactly how it happened before, mainly that WW just left and wasnt sent as a representative of the Amazons, and they just wanted to be left alone.

I also enjoyed Johns' happy, swashbuckling WW a ton, so i'm hoping for an origin where she leaves the island a spoiled princess who is brash, loves adventure and fun, and doesnt want to grow up or be the perfect fighter because her immortal (?) mother will always be around and the Amazons never really fought anyone besides themselves. But then throughout the story she matures and learns to be responsible, improves her fighting skills because with them she can serve others and the Amazons, etc, etc.

I also have a nice scene in my mind where the bad guys shoot arrows at her but she's not good enough to deflect them all, because she simply didnt care enough to get good at it. So she gets wounded but soldiers on, and of course by the end of the story she gets good at it.

Just my throughts. The new 52 has made my imagination go wild. However i dont know if other fans would like such a story. Even for a young WW, being imperfect is blasphemy.

You might think I'm being sarcastic -- I hope not, because I think there's a chance to find some common ground here and I mean this in all honesty --

The best Marston and Perez era stories featured a Diana who was not only imperfect, but aware of it. Marston's character was flippant, brash and would often get herself in more trouble through overconfidence than some of the villains could muster -- see "The Masquerader", where Hippolyta uses Diana's cockiness to basically smack her around at every opportunity, for one example.

Messner-Loebs and Simone wrote her with a wry humor, which she used at her own expense often -- the person in another thread wondering if "The Circle" is accessible should just read the opening pages with the gorillas. I don't know if you read Wednesday Comics, but Ben Caldwell is almost universally beloved around here for writing a young, headstrong and out-of-her-depth Diana. I think you would be pleasantly surprised by how many people that feel marginalized by this run -- and the attitude of a lot of its fans -- would LOVE to see the story you pitched come to print.

As good a writer as Azzarello is, I also don't see him wanting to write it -- but there are lots of folks out there who could!

**Roldan** · 04-24-2012, 01:10 AM

Originally Posted by slvn

It depends on who comes when he goes, I think. Someone like Snyder or Lemire might appeal to Veritgo/Dark readers even more than Azz does. Plus, they might be more inclined, by temperament and style, to seek that "middle ground" and call back some (admittedly, not necessarily all) of the book's traditional readers.

Morrison has expressed interest so that might not even happen.

**Dr. Hurt** · 04-24-2012, 03:20 AM

Originally Posted by BeccaBlast

You might think I'm being sarcastic -- I hope not, because I think there's a chance to find some common ground here and I mean this in all honesty --

The best Marston and Perez era stories featured a Diana who was not only imperfect, but aware of it. Marston's character was flippant, brash and would often get herself in more trouble through overconfidence than some of the villains could muster -- see "The Masquerader", where Hippolyta uses Diana's cockiness to basically smack her around at every opportunity, for one example.

Messner-Loebs and Simone wrote her with a wry humor, which she used at her own expense often -- the person in another thread wondering if "The Circle" is accessible should just read the opening pages with the gorillas. I don't know if you read Wednesday Comics, but Ben Caldwell is almost universally beloved around here for writing a young, headstrong and out-of-her-depth Diana. I think you would be pleasantly surprised by how many people that feel marginalized by this run -- and the attitude of a lot of its fans -- would LOVE to see the story you pitched come to print.

As good a writer as Azzarello is, I also don't see him wanting to write it -- but there are lots of folks out there who could!

I agree. Perhaps it will be Johns who writes #0, they said there will be some creator suprises!

**Wulfmir** · 04-24-2012, 04:48 AM

Originally Posted by Dr. Hurt

I agree. Perhaps it will be Johns who writes #0, they said there will be some creator suprises!

I'd like that just to see this board's reaction.

**MelDyer** · 04-24-2012, 04:48 AM

I've had people tell me they liked the Wonder Woman in the Justice League cartoon, but couldn't get into the solo comic. Too prissy and too perfect. I should mention that these people, to a man [Lol], ..have all been women. I haven't met a real woman, who's reading comics, who liked Wonder Woman enough to collect the comic.

Before Azzarello got here, Wonder Woman, for the most, was a dreary, little sad-sack, who found no joy in her work or the world around her. Her archenemy was a shrill, out-dated, one-note cliche, who wore out her welcome in the 80s. Why should anyone, man or woman, want to spend three bucks on that?

Wonder Woman isn't perfect, but, at least I give a damn, whether she lives or dies, these days. Azzarello's introduction of Zola has done volumes to humanize Wondy and make her a character we care about. It's not some Vertigoesque angst he's infusing the comic with.

It's something as simple as feeling Wondy in a genuinely caring, meaningful relationship with a human being, who isn't annoying (Nessie). She hasn't had that, regularly, since Kurt Busiek's Legend Of Wonder Woman miniseries.

**Dr. Hurt** · 04-24-2012, 05:06 AM

That's why i like Zola so much. She brings a sense of reality to the story. She's the average person stuck in the crossfire between gods and demigods. She's the Sam Witwicky of this franchise. Actually she's much better than that.

**slvn** · 04-24-2012, 08:01 AM

Originally Posted by Roldan

Morrison has expressed interest so that might not even happen.

I think Morrison said his WW project would probably be set on another earth, so I'm guessing he's not going to take over the ongoing book. If he does, I think he could keep and build the Vertigo audience very well while also appealing to Marston fans.

**slvn** · 04-24-2012, 08:02 AM

Originally Posted by BeccaBlast

You might think I'm being sarcastic -- I hope not, because I think there's a chance to find some common ground here and I mean this in all honesty --

It didn't sound sarcastic. The following may, but I don't mean it sarcastically either. I'm going to argue that Azz is already doing a lot of what you seem to miss and want.

The best Marston and Perez era stories featured a Diana who was not only imperfect, but aware of it.

That's certainly true of Azz's run too, right? In issue one, she says she did something stupid. In issue 5, she flat out says she's not perfect. At the end of issue 7, she thoroughly fed up with herself.

Marston's character was flippant, brash and would often get herself in more trouble through overconfidence than some of the villains could muster

This also seems quite true of Azzarello's Wonder Woman. As Poseidon says, she "ha[s] a vanity"--so much so that she's not afraid to take on the eldest gods, to lead a rebellion against Hephaestus in his own workshop, and to harrow hell apparently without a plan. She "cares too much" as Chiang puts it, and as a result she's sometimes too brash for her own good. Very Marstonian, I'd say.

Messner-Loebs and Simone wrote her with a wry humor

If you want wry humor, go back to issue 2 of this run and look at the expression on her face when she tells Zola that she considered leaving her behind. Most of teh credit probably goes to Chiang fo rhtat one, but it was very wry and very Marstonian.

humor which she used at her own expense often

I guess I can't really say that about Azz's Wonder Woman yet. She's self-deprecating and humorous, but I don't think she put those two pieces together very much. It's something I'd like to see more of, and I think that it would fit this version of the character, once she gets some of the really raw emotional turmoil behind her.

As good a writer as Azzarello is, I also don't see him wanting to write it

As shown above, to a large extent, he already is writing the kind of Wonder Woman you describe--it just may be hard to see because the changes to the Amazons and the brith story can be distracting.

**BeccaBlast** · 04-24-2012, 12:11 PM

Originally Posted by slvn

It didn't sound sarcastic. The following may, but I don't mean it sarcastically either. I'm going to argue that Azz is already doing a lot of what you seem to miss and want.

That's certainly true of Azz's run too, right? In issue one, she says she did something stupid. In issue 5, she flat out says she's not perfect. At the end of issue 7, she thoroughly fed up with herself.

This also seems quite true of Azzarello's Wonder Woman. As Poseidon says, she "ha[s] a vanity"--so much so that she's not afraid to take on the eldest gods, to lead a rebellion against Hephaestus in his own workshop, and to harrow hell apparently without a plan. She "cares too much" as Chiang puts it, and as a result she's sometimes too brash for her own good. Very Marstonian, I'd say.

If you want wry humor, go back to issue 2 of this run and look at the expression on her face when she tells Zola that she considered leaving her behind. Most of teh credit probably goes to Chiang fo rhtat one, but it was very wry and very Marstonian.

I guess I can't really say that about Azz's Wonder Woman yet. She's self-deprecating and humorous, but I don't think she put those two pieces together very much. It's something I'd like to see more of, and I think that it would fit this version of the character, once she gets some of the really raw emotional turmoil behind her.

As shown above, to a large extent, he already is writing the kind of Wonder Woman you describe--it just may be hard to see because the changes to the Amazons and the brith story can be distracting.

As the bulk of what I wrote was addressed to someone else's contention that "... I dont know if other fans would like such a story. Even for a young WW, being imperfect is blasphemy", I don't see how your comments affect my view that the idea long-term fans want a humorless perfect Diana is a complete and totally uninformed fallacy. I simply pointed out that many of the best pre-Azz WW stories show her exactly the way Doc Hurt was proposing for his #0.

FWIW, I also liked the B&B story with Zatanna and Batgirl.

I've read this series; as I've said in numerous places, I liked it until what I consider the major self-inflicted wounds of #7, and I have always said that he might be capable of finding a way out of the mess, but I wasn't going to hold my breath. If that's too nuanced for a message board, too bucking fad, shall we say. But I really am getting tired of the self-congratulating "we're the only ones who get it, and they're just a bunch of haters who only want their pure perfect princess back" attitude I see FAR too much from those who support this arc. From what I've heard of Azzarello, he's no more enamored of that kind of fan than he is of the ones who blindly label him misogynist.

"As shown above", taking my post to Doc out of context to give me a lecture is beneath what I've come to expect from you, slvn. Given what Azzarello has chosen to write for his creator-owned properties, I doubt the kind of rambunctious, fractious coming-of-age story Doc mentioned is his preferred material. Maybe that makes what I said a little clearer.

Oh, and my vision is fine.