Thread Drift: Ultimate Gwen Stacy and Peter Parker's Love Life

[Kevinroc]

It's an anomaly that proves the point. No one is saying that it's the most likely thing, only that your predetermined drumbeat is shortsighted. I know you're trying to use past behavior to predict future actions, but even ignoring the various individual circumstances that led to things happening the way they did, I'm not sure the sample size is large enough, at least when only looking at Spider-Man, to really use those as predictive to future Spider-Man material. I mean, to use the cartoon shows as an example, there have been five television Spider-Man shows ('67, Amazing Friends, Spider-Man, Spectacular, and now Ultimate). How much do ANY of those five have in common? '67 has weird monsters, AF is a Team-up show, Ultimate looks to be a team-up show, Spider-Man started the show in the middle of his career, Spectacular did all sorts of crazy things with his supporting cast. I don't think any of them fit into a specific pattern.

I don't just look at Spider-Man. I look at all comics. Past is precedent. Status quo is god. There's really no other way to put it.

The cartoons all have their own individual sets of rules and don't have to follow the strict adherence to comic book continuity. (And you missed the 1980 Spider-Man cartoon that actually featured Betty Brant as the main love interest. But everyone forgets that cartoon. And you missed the CGI series that was on MTV. That one was okay. Tied into the Raimi films a little too much. And of course, Unlimited. But we don't talk about that one.)

You've essentially bought into the idea that there are real, long-lasting changes within super hero comics. And at this point, there really isn't. No matter how much it seems like things are different, they aren't. Really.

Well, it's worth noting that based on the issue I started reading that book, that story didn't seem to be over, really. It wasn't a set deal anymore than Betty Brant being the girl in 616 or Gwen and Firestar in Spider-Man loves Mary-Jane. At least, based on Gwen's response to her father when he asks about Peter.

Of course, since they cancelled it(regardless of what Wacker calls it) and replaced it with a new book, we'll never know.

It's also worth mentioning, of course, because it again undermines your position that things will always be a certain way. Marvel Adventures was another new interpretation and no Mary Jane at all. Instead, we get a love triangle between Gwen and some new girl. See previous comments about sample size. The fact that they did it ONCE a certain way is not indicative that they will continue to do it that way.

And there are Superman stories where Lois Lane isn't "the love interest."

[Chuckles]

Well, Gwen alive in a rebooted 616 is a given as I see it, so I think all bets are off and a trope like 'Status Quo Is God' doesn't apply. Gwen Stacy isn't exactly Cissy Ironwood. She is a force of nature within the Spider-Man mythos that continues to affect it 40 years after her death. So I think the creators would let the love triangle play out organically. Maybe in the end Mary Jane perseveres, but it wouldn't be because of a precedent established 20 or so years after Gwen first died.

[Xenon]

I don't just look at Spider-Man. I look at all comics. Past is precedent. Status quo is god. There's really no other way to put it.

The cartoons all have their own individual sets of rules and don't have to follow the strict adherence to comic book continuity. (And you missed the 1980 Spider-Man cartoon that actually featured Betty Brant as the main love interest. But everyone forgets that cartoon. And you missed the CGI series that was on MTV. That one was okay. Tied into the Raimi films a little too much. And of course, Unlimited. But we don't talk about that one.)

You've essentially bought into the idea that there are real, long-lasting changes within super hero comics. And at this point, there really isn't. No matter how much it seems like things are different, they aren't. Really.

The fact that creators with less....vision...have controlled the industry for the past fifteen years does not mean that's the way it has to be. Again, you say things never change, but Spider-Man proves you wrong with numerous examples (High School Graduation, College Graduation, the Death of Gwen Stacy, the fact that Betty Brant isn't the love interest). And hell, there are even other examples that are just less notable. Captain Marvel has been dead for thirty years, for instance. Even on the other side, which practices Status Quo is God much more openly, there are things like Dick Grayson becoming Nightwing or the birth of Damien Wayne.

Yes, in general most things go back to the way they were. Like I said, fictional inertia is a powerful force. But it's not a law. It's just been the general dispostion, a disposition that has been especially exacerbated by the past fifteen years and the seemingly more short-term focused aims of the modern comics operation.

And there are Superman stories where Lois Lane isn't "the love interest."

Mary Jane is not Lois Lane, however. She's the THIRD love interest.

Well, Gwen alive in a rebooted 616 is a given as I see it, so I think all bets are off and a trope like 'Status Quo Is God' doesn't apply. Gwen Stacy isn't exactly Cissy Ironwood. She is a force of nature within the Spider-Man mythos that continues to affect it 40 years after her death. So I think the creators would let the love triangle play out organically. Maybe in the end Mary Jane perseveres, but it wouldn't be because of a precedent established 20 or so years after Gwen first died.

I can't say I agree with that, sadly. The resurrection of Gwen would only serve to alienate a large portion of the audience, or at least frustrate them. No matter what you do. If you bring back Gwen, there will be people who feel that she is THE Love Interest and will expect that to be reflected in the comics. At the same time, you have a larger audience that believe Mary Jane the one-and-only, and would expect Gwen coming back to have no consequence on that fact, if it didn't just reinforce Mary Jane as the one. Either way, you're going to tick off a large segment of the population. MJ fans if you go with Gwen, Gwen fans and people who don't like you wasting their time if you go with Mary Jane (because why undo one of the most pivotal moments in comics if you were just goign to ship her off somewhere else). You'd create "ship to ship combat" as it were, and that even without the additional complications of developing Gwen.

Yes, complications from developing Gwen. Because people have all sorts of views on who she was and should be and what she should and shouldn't do. Because she wasn't developed in very many areas, any decision regarding what to do with her will be met with suspicion. It could go completely wrong if a some misguided writer feels that she was "just treated too well" or come off as a Mary Sue (and accusations will fly either way).

No, she should remain dead. Even without going into the larger ramifications of whether non-powered characters should be resurrected (and frankly, no one should be resurrected in Spider-Man), there's simply too much politics surrounding your character. You're correct that her influence is still prevelant 40 years after her death, but it's because of that you can't just play with her character like that. It'd be one thing if her role wasn't sufficiently filled, but it is, and really I have no desire to see her fill a different role, and think lessens her charm if you tried to.

[Probalus]

I can't say I agree with that, sadly. The resurrection of Gwen would only serve to alienate a large portion of the audience, or at least frustrate them. No matter what you do. If you bring back Gwen, there will be people who feel that she is THE Love Interest and will expect that to be reflected in the comics. At the same time, you have a larger audience that believe Mary Jane the one-and-only, and would expect Gwen coming back to have no consequence on that fact, if it didn't just reinforce Mary Jane as the one. Either way, you're going to tick off a large segment of the population. MJ fans if you go with Gwen, Gwen fans and people who don't like you wasting their time if you go with Mary Jane (because why undo one of the most pivotal moments in comics if you were just goign to ship her off somewhere else). You'd create "ship to ship combat" as it were, and that even without the additional complications of developing Gwen.

Don't think it'd piss anyone off more than OMD/BND did in terms of shipping, and they were perfectly willing to go along with that. So why not go the full mile. Most hardcore MJ-shippers probably dropped the title 4 years ago anyway.

[Kevinroc]

Well, Gwen alive in a rebooted 616 is a given as I see it, so I think all bets are off and a trope like 'Status Quo Is God' doesn't apply. Gwen Stacy isn't exactly Cissy Ironwood. She is a force of nature within the Spider-Man mythos that continues to affect it 40 years after her death. So I think the creators would let the love triangle play out organically. Maybe in the end Mary Jane perseveres, but it wouldn't be because of a precedent established 20 or so years after Gwen first died.

A resurrected Gwen in 616 is possible during a reboot. But let's see if the new film franchise kills her (as I believe they will). If those movies turn out to be successful and they do kill Gwen (both scenarios are hypothetical as of this post since the reboot will be "the other Spider-Man movies"), I'd say that would really put another nail in Gwen's hypothetical coffin.

(Although we're talking about comics and when is anything ever final?)

The fact that creators with less....vision...have controlled the industry for the past fifteen years does not mean that's the way it has to be. Again, you say things never change, but Spider-Man proves you wrong with numerous examples (High School Graduation, College Graduation, the Death of Gwen Stacy, the fact that Betty Brant isn't the love interest). And hell, there are even other examples that are just less notable. Captain Marvel has been dead for thirty years, for instance. Even on the other side, which practices Status Quo is God much more openly, there are things like Dick Grayson becoming Nightwing or the birth of Damien Wayne.

Yes, in general most things go back to the way they were. Like I said, fictional inertia is a powerful force. But it's not a law. It's just been the general dispostion, a disposition that has been especially exacerbated by the past fifteen years and the seemingly more short-term focused aims of the modern comics operation.

And many of the people at Marvel today have made clear they don't like that Peter was aged as much as he had been. Hell, years before One More Day, there was talk of John Byrne and co. doing a hard reboot that would put Peter and his supporting cast back in high school. (It would not have been Mephisto. It would have been an obscure character called "The Shaper Of Worlds." And yes, Gwen would have been alive again.)

Our very own Mr. Mets discussed it a little here.

http://www.spidermanreviews.com/2011...n-part-16.html

Yes, Fictional-Inertia can be powerful. But never doubt for a second that anything can't be done or undone at a moment's notice. (I'm actually kinda surprised they didn't turn Dick Grayson and Wally West back into kids because of the Young Justice cartoon.)

Mary Jane is not Lois Lane, however. She's the THIRD love interest.

And she's the most prominent. And she's a creation of Lee/Ditko/Romita (a rather rare combination, I might add). And she's been a part of Spider-Man's world since Amazing Spider-Man #15 (when Aunt May first mentioned her and Peter should date). That's longer than Gwen (Amazing #31). That's barely longer than the Green Goblin (Amazing #14. But Norman himself didn't appear until #23. And was finally named in #37.) #15 was also the first appearance of Kraven The Hunter.

I'm not sure why Lee and Ditko didn't have MJ's face on panel or why we didn't see her face until after Romita had taken over (in #42) but that huge build-up to what she looked like? Yeah, it's not a wonder why some people thought the pay-off was supposed to be her as Peter's girlfriend.

[Xenon]

Don't think it'd piss anyone off more than OMD/BND did in terms of shipping, and they were perfectly willing to go along with that. So why not go the full mile. Most hardcore MJ-shippers probably dropped the title 4 years ago anyway.

Well, you're correct, it wouldn't be as bad as OMD, or frankly, any other possible shipping possibility, because Gwen is the single character that has that sort of milage (one could argue that Felicia has close to it, but I'd argue that'd only work with MJ COMPLETELY out of the picture). But again, I think it stirs the pot for results that aren't good. And while I might accept that by itself, getting to that point would require breaking other rules of Spider-Man that shouldn't be broken.

A resurrected Gwen in 616 is possible during a reboot. But let's see if the new film franchise kills her (as I believe they will). If those movies turn out to be successful and they do kill Gwen (both scenarios are hypothetical as of this post since the reboot will be "the other Spider-Man movies"), I'd say that would really put another nail in Gwen's hypothetical coffin.

(Although we're talking about comics and when is anything ever final?)

Cementing a character's role is the general response to repeated exposure, but it can also lead to more openess to alternative what if...? style scenarios. Though in general I think you're correct here.

And many of the people at Marvel today have made clear they don't like that Peter was aged as much as he had been. Hell, years before One More Day, there was talk of John Byrne and co. doing a hard reboot that would put Peter and his supporting cast back in high school. (It would not have been Mephisto. It would have been an obscure character called "The Shaper Of Worlds." And yes, Gwen would have been alive again.)

Our very own Mr. Mets discussed it a little here.

http://www.spidermanreviews.com/2011...n-part-16.html

Yes, Fictional-Inertia can be powerful. But never doubt for a second that anything can't be done or undone at a moment's notice. (I'm actually kinda surprised they didn't turn Dick Grayson and Wally West back into kids because of the Young Justice cartoon.)

That bolded part there is kinda my point. Despite the fact that cylical nature of comics is the norm, it can be broken and repitition under the right circumstances is not guaranteed. It's like Final Fantasy! =p

And she's the most prominent. And she's a creation of Lee/Ditko/Romita (a rather rare combination, I might add). And she's been a part of Spider-Man's world since Amazing Spider-Man #15 (when Aunt May first mentioned her and Peter should date). That's longer than Gwen (Amazing #31). That's barely longer than the Green Goblin (Amazing #14. But Norman himself didn't appear until #23. And was finally named in #37.) #15 was also the first appearance of Kraven The Hunter.

All of these are true statements, but miss the point. Lois is the undisputed Superman love interest because she beats all other possible challengers is all categories. She was first, she's got the most exposure, she's got the most experience, she's had the most development, and perhaps most importantly, she's ALWAYS been the target of his affections, even if old flames were occasionally revealed or detours taken. Her role is clearly established and has always been hers (she's never died by herself, AFAIK, though DC being what it is....>_>). Spider-Man doesn't have that situation at all. With Betty being the first love, Gwen being the main target of his affections for years, and Mary Jane even being truly supplanted for a short time by Felicia. It's just not the same environment.

I'm not sure why Lee and Ditko didn't have MJ's face on panel or why we didn't see her face until after Romita had taken over (in #42) but that huge build-up to what she looked like? Yeah, it's not a wonder why some people thought the pay-off was supposed to be her as Peter's girlfriend.

A misguided belief helped along by a timely change in Artists. Stan I think was just in it for the joke, but this gave her the fortune of being first really drawn by the romance artist as opposed to the depressed ethical egoist. =p

You know, of all the things that get talked about with that artist change, I'm surprised that never really comes up. The impact of that scene and how it was presented I think would have been dramatically different under Ditko than under Romita, and unlike other aspects that are often brought up, this one seems purely visual to me.

[KurtW95]

Well, Gwen alive in a rebooted 616 is a given as I see it, so I think all bets are off and a trope like 'Status Quo Is God' doesn't apply. Gwen Stacy isn't exactly Cissy Ironwood. She is a force of nature within the Spider-Man mythos that continues to affect it 40 years after her death. So I think the creators would let the love triangle play out organically. Maybe in the end Mary Jane perseveres, but it wouldn't be because of a precedent established 20 or so years after Gwen first died.

God knows I don't want a reboot. But I do want Gwen back.

[Kevinroc]

Cementing a character's role is the general response to repeated exposure, but it can also lead to more openess to alternative what if...? style scenarios. Though in general I think you're correct here.

I'll tell you what I've told other people. Read Powerless. It's essentially an "Elseworlds" type mini that I think you will enjoy.

That bolded part there is kinda my point. Despite the fact that cylical nature of comics is the norm, it can be broken and repitition under the right circumstances is not guaranteed. It's like Final Fantasy! =p

You could make the argument that the portion was already broken with Betty (although that relationship was clearly not meant to last) and with the death of Gwen. But the idea is at this point in time it is much more difficult to break that cyclical nature. Batman got other Robins after they essentially spun-off Dick Grayson (and while Jason Todd had many problems, Tim Drake did fulfill that role very well). So while something seems like it has changed, it hasn't really changed.

The problems with The Flash alone on this subject.

All of these are true statements, but miss the point. Lois is the undisputed Superman love interest because she beats all other possible challengers is all categories. She was first, she's got the most exposure, she's got the most experience, she's had the most development, and perhaps most importantly, she's ALWAYS been the target of his affections, even if old flames were occasionally revealed or detours taken. Her role is clearly established and has always been hers (she's never died by herself, AFAIK, though DC being what it is....>_>). Spider-Man doesn't have that situation at all. With Betty being the first love, Gwen being the main target of his affections for years, and Mary Jane even being truly supplanted for a short time by Felicia. It's just not the same environment.

Sure, I know that. Not my point (well, not exactly my point). At this point in time, do you think it's possible for MJ to be supplanted as the love interest?

A misguided belief helped along by a timely change in Artists. Stan I think was just in it for the joke, but this gave her the fortune of being first really drawn by the romance artist as opposed to the depressed ethical egoist. =p

You know, of all the things that get talked about with that artist change, I'm surprised that never really comes up. The impact of that scene and how it was presented I think would have been dramatically different under Ditko than under Romita, and unlike other aspects that are often brought up, this one seems purely visual to me.

Well, MJ was always supposed to be a knockout, given the way Betty and Liz reacted after they first saw her. But who knows what would have happened if MJ had been fully introduced and integrated into the title when Ditko was still the artist.

(Still. Lee/Ditko/Romita? That's a trifecta of Spider-Awesomeness right there.)

[Spidey_Legend]

Powerless was an excelent Elseworld. There should be more.

[Scott Taylor]

Well, MJ was always supposed to be a knockout, given the way Betty and Liz reacted after they first saw her. But who knows what would have happened if MJ had been fully introduced and integrated into the title when Ditko was still the artist.

Bad things, I suspect. Ditko really had a bad handle on how to write women, imho. Best thing that ever happened to MJ is that Romita wrote her character originally.

[Xenon]

You could make the argument that the portion was already broken with Betty (although that relationship was clearly not meant to last) and with the death of Gwen. But the idea is at this point in time it is much more difficult to break that cyclical nature. Batman got other Robins after they essentially spun-off Dick Grayson (and while Jason Todd had many problems, Tim Drake did fulfill that role very well). So while something seems like it has changed, it hasn't really changed.

The problems with The Flash alone on this subject.

1) That there is usually A Robin does not mean that there is no change. Dick Grayson is not Robin, neither, for that matter, is Jason Todd or Tim Drake, and despite all taking on the same costumed identities, they were all individualized distinct characters. That's still change, it's just baby steps.
2) Again, you can cite as many examples as you wish, that's just you missing the point. No one is arguing that it's not hard. It's that it's not impossible, which is your drum beat.

Sure, I know that. Not my point (well, not exactly my point). At this point in time, do you think it's possible for MJ to be supplanted as the love interest?

In 616? No. Gwen is the only one who can really threaten her (Felicia to a much lesser degree), and as i mentioned earlier, she's dead and any sort of resurrection would be out of line with the way this comic is supposed to be written and filled with too much political baggage. In any other form of media or a reboot? Yes.

Well, MJ was always supposed to be a knockout, given the way Betty and Liz reacted after they first saw her. But who knows what would have happened if MJ had been fully introduced and integrated into the title when Ditko was still the artist.

(Still. Lee/Ditko/Romita? That's a trifecta of Spider-Awesomeness right there.)

You misunderstand. I'm aware that MJ was supposed to make Betty and Liz pale in comparison, but I think a lot of the impact of that particular scene was not what was written but what was drawn. Especially WHEN it was drawn. It was essentially a pin-up shot (albeit a very clothed one) and serves as the real introduction to the character (unlike Gwen and Betty, who both were saddled with original Ditko versions. It took Gwen fifteen issues just to be adjusted to how Romita wanted her). Heck, it's almost the first woman Romita draws thanks to scheduling (Gwen makes a very brief appearance in 41, but nothing like the one MJ gets).

What I'm really getting at here is that I wonder how she would have fared without that knockout starting punch that establishes her as the doll she is. I think that in itself created demand for her.

[Kevinroc]

1) That there is usually A Robin does not mean that there is no change. Dick Grayson is not Robin, neither, for that matter, is Jason Todd or Tim Drake, and despite all taking on the same costumed identities, they were all individualized distinct characters. That's still change, it's just baby steps.
2) Again, you can cite as many examples as you wish, that's just you missing the point. No one is arguing that it's not hard. It's that it's not impossible, which is your drum beat.

Your argument essentially revolves around DC Comics. The same company that just brought back Barry Allen as The Flash after 23 years of being dead. And after 23 years they made Barbara Gordon take up the Batgirl name again. Just wait until the next continuity revamp and see what they revert next.

In 616? No. Gwen is the only one who can really threaten her (Felicia to a much lesser degree), and as i mentioned earlier, she's dead and any sort of resurrection would be out of line with the way this comic is supposed to be written and filled with too much political baggage. In any other form of media or a reboot? Yes.

The problem I have with seeing this is that Gwen's been dead for about 40 years now within the context of the main continuity. I'd say (I know what I say isn't indisputable fact but just my opinion) that the odds are against such a thing given precedence on the subject and how much more material there is to choose from with MJ in a hypothetical reboot.

(Of course a hypothetical 616-reboot doesn't even need to use Peter Parker. We could see Miles Morales stepping into the main role. )

You misunderstand. I'm aware that MJ was supposed to make Betty and Liz pale in comparison, but I think a lot of the impact of that particular scene was not what was written but what was drawn. Especially WHEN it was drawn. It was essentially a pin-up shot (albeit a very clothed one) and serves as the real introduction to the character (unlike Gwen and Betty, who both were saddled with original Ditko versions. It took Gwen fifteen issues just to be adjusted to how Romita wanted her). Heck, it's almost the first woman Romita draws thanks to scheduling (Gwen makes a very brief appearance in 41, but nothing like the one MJ gets).

What I'm really getting at here is that I wonder how she would have fared without that knockout starting punch that establishes her as the doll she is. I think that in itself created demand for her.

First impressions are important. And MJ's introduction features probably the second most memorable line in the franchise's history.

[Xenon]

Your argument essentially revolves around DC Comics. The same company that just brought back Barry Allen as The Flash after 23 years of being dead. And after 23 years they made Barbara Gordon take up the Batgirl name again. Just wait until the next continuity revamp and see what they revert next.

No, my argument does not revolve around them. That's just the example you picked out to try and disprove. See Also: Captain Marvel (Mar-Vell), who is still dead.

The problem I have with seeing this is that Gwen's been dead for about 40 years now within the context of the main continuity. I'd say (I know what I say isn't indisputable fact but just my opinion) that the odds are against such a thing given precedence on the subject and how much more material there is to choose from with MJ in a hypothetical reboot.

(Of course a hypothetical 616-reboot doesn't even need to use Peter Parker. We could see Miles Morales stepping into the main role. )

1) No one is saying the odds are GOOD
2) With that said, however, despite being dead for forty years every reboot and reimagining of the last ten years (except Noir....yet) has purposely used her, even when they don't intend on killing her. Also, keep in mind that things they don't have as much development can often be attractive in reboots, since people don't have as many expectations. Though whether that would apply in Gwen's case I'm not sure (I think people have LOTS of expectations for her, really)

[Kevinroc]

No, my argument does not revolve around them. That's just the example you picked out to try and disprove. See Also: Captain Marvel (Mar-Vell), who is still dead.

You're talking about the idea that there have been actual changes within super hero comics that have stuck (for now, anyway, because hey, comics). But there's a difference between these characters and someone like Captain Mar-Vell. Companies are a lot more conservative the higher up a character is on the "totem pole." Especially at this point in time.

1) No one is saying the odds are GOOD
2) With that said, however, despite being dead for forty years every reboot and reimagining of the last ten years (except Noir....yet) has purposely used her, even when they don't intend on killing her. Also, keep in mind that things they don't have as much development can often be attractive in reboots, since people don't have as many expectations. Though whether that would apply in Gwen's case I'm not sure (I think people have LOTS of expectations for her, really)

1: Odds of this are mathematically insignificant, I think.

2: All I think back to is Spectacular, where it seemed like the most asked question was "(when) is Gwen going to die?"

And of course my belief that she will be killed in the reboot movie franchise (not that it will marry the concept anymore to Gwen than it already has been. But the idea of Gwen as "THE love interest" seems regulated to AU stories like Powerless at this point in time.)

You can say that there are odds of this happening but I still think the odds of the situation presenting itself are mathematically insignificant.