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  1. #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mister Mets View Post
    If travelling between dimensions is possible, they could also send the Ultimate Gwen Stacy back in time a few years to avoid the age difference thing.

    Hell, they could reveal that someone currently in the book is really Ultimate Gwen Stacy.
    Just screams "Black Canary," doesn't it? Or is that just me?
    The monster saved them all. And in their fear, they betrayed him. As they always have. As they always will.

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  2. #62
    Senior Member Xenon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kevinroc View Post
    This is the real reason why I question why ANYBODY would use HoM as evidence for ANYTHING about Peter Parker.

    1: Why was Peter such a dick? (The way he treats Jonah. In his heart of hearts, Peter wants to be a horrible boss to Jonah? To the degree that he does in this mini? We all know Jonah is a jerk but he actually does care about Peter. In HoM, Peter was absolutely terrible to Jonah.)

    2: Why was Norman not in jail? In Peter's heart of hearts, he just wants to be Norman's boss and have Gwen taunt him as a washed up old hack? And Peter leaves Harry by the wayside (since Harry isn't mentioned at all in HoM)?

    3: The whole Peter is Goblin and exposing himself as a fake mutant. As Gwen said, "What does it mean when a person's fantasy life is tragic?" (Gwen says this about the "real world," but we can just ask that about the HoM reality.)
    Honestly? I'm not so sure the concepts behind any of those are problematic. Peter has shown himself to be a little petty at times, and Jonah has made Spider-Man's life miserable for most of his existence, so giving him a bit of a comeuppance makes sense. Norman is an arrogant bastard who is responsible for almost literally every bad thing that has ever happened to Peter Parker at this point, tormenting him in that manner, again, seems like apt punishment. And Peter has always shown a bit of a self-loathing streak along with a compulsive need to confess his wrongdoings often enough, so screwing himself isn't that far off.

    With that said, the manner in which they went about it doesn't seem to have been good, but I can see where you're going with this.

    Quote Originally Posted by Confuzzled Mutie View Post
    She throws parties and starts wailing at them if her boyfriend doesn't turn up. Yes, we have had this discussion before and I fail to see how "throwing parties" establishes Gwen as a strong, easy going character. "Throwing parties" was like a conforming necessity for women in the 50s' and 60s' anyway. =p
    Yes that's nice, it's still completely undermines your point about her being at ease and self-confident socially.

    And since you felt the need to jab, I must say, you're pretty heartless dude. The man she loved had apparently forgotten her Birthday. You do that to your girlfriend and see how she reacts. =p

    Not really. If that had been the case I would have just ignored that little portion of your reply instead of giving any sort of reply to it. But seriously, you are arguing that Gwen sucked in Type 1 in Run 2 (Type 1: Abrasive and Unpleasant, Type 2: Wilting Trainwreck, Run 1: Ditko, Run 2: Romita Sr.). I may not remember the extents of the two runs very clearly but what difference does it make if I didn't like the character throughout the entire era, albeit in different ways. It is little irrelevant things like this that you catch on to in order to invalidate my points which smacks of desperation.
    Basic Characterization is not a little thing. Accusations of a CHANGING characterization are probably central to an argument about changing characterization. You're trying to argue that Loeb changed her personality, making knowing her personality CENTRAL to the argument.

    Well seriously, if that were true, which it isn't, then I am not the only person who is ignoring facts and perpetrates personal disillusions to make his point in this discussion. But more on this later.
    You've yet to cite any actual book examples in support of you position. I have.


    Maybe the reason I keep on hating her original version is because you still haven't made a competent defense as to why Gwen did not suck in the Silver Age? Especially when you bring up examples like "throwing parties" or "got in fights with Peter" (read: tried to physically strike Peter for no good reason at all!) to show that no, Gwen wasn't all that big a terrible albatross of a character in the Silver Age.
    You're confusing arguments at this point. I am not trying to convince you that her silver age version doens't suck. That would require you be familiar with what happened during the silver age, which previous points have established that your understanding is murky at best. More importantly, your fanboyism on this matter is clearly established, and thus I will not waste rational arguments. Plus, again, Gwen isn't everyone's cup of tea, just like how Betty and Felicia and Mary Jane aren't. That's fine. All I ask is that if you're going to hate on her, you do so for valid reasons.


    Eh, he moved on, I would say. It is kind of gross, and frankly highly immature and repressive, if he still obsesses over his dead lover more than his current one. Not to mention it goes completely against the "coming of age" and "great responsibilities" theme of the series if he is cheating on his wife with a memory. For, reminiscing Gwen is one thing, but stubbornly refusing to move on is pathetic at best, especially when you have someone as magical as Mary Jane Watson devoted to you for the rest of your life. (Frankly, this is also my opinion of all Gwen fans and current Peter/Gwen shippers in general. There, I said it! )
    I've never really liked Mary Jane, even when I watched the 90s cartoon as a kid, I rooted for Felicia (though now this seems comical to me), but that's not really relevant. But neither is this entire part of your post. Since you in no way contradict anything that's in the book and only say what you want/feel. Since people just doing what they want/feel is how we ended up with OMD, you'll understand if I come down a bit harsh on this line of thinking.

    With that said, I think your extremism here is misplaced. He loved her, and she died, and so he misses her. It would, honestly, be weird if he DIDN'T obsess a little bit every so often, because love doesn't just go away, even if the person does. And while yes, it'd be a problem if he let that seriously get in the way of his wife, I dont' think tha's ever happened. And consider also that her dying was what pushed the two of them together in the first place, her shadow is never fully gone from the relationship.


    Whatever Loeb set out to do with Blue and those other stories you mention, OMD has undone later on as now Peter has two lost loves, out of which Mary Jane is the more popular and more dominant in the GP's memory. If, going by your argument, Gwen's significance is prevalent as the lost love and the one true love, then that scenario demands that he still be with MJ. Otherwise losing MJ as well renders Gwen as only Peter's dead girlfriend. The real tragedy would be about the second love he lost, a lover who was with him through a lot more trials and tribulations than the first one. So going by the current status quo, the tragedy of losing MJ trumps the tragedy of losing Gwen, especially when you take into consideration that Peter sees MJ everyday and yet, neither of them can remember the many wonderful moments of their past borne straight out of their marriage.
    I bolded that sentence because I think it's a very good line...in an otherwise nonsense paragraph. =p

    I agree. Gwen's memory and Mary Jane's understanding of that make their relationship deeper than anyone else's could ever be. It's part of the reason why OMD is stupid.

    But with that said, Mary Jane is not a lost love, and even if she were having spent more time with him is just a different kind of loss. I believe the relevant phrase here is "'tis better to have loved and lost than never to have loved at all", which isn't perfect here, but strikes at the general idea. That is to say, with Mary Jane, he knows what he loses, because he experienced it for years completely. With Gwen, he knows only a taste of what he lost and can only wonder tat the potential losses (it's why, as well, I prefer them never having slept together). Your mind will do far worse things to you than reality ever will. Which is worse is a matter of perspective, perhaps, but an irrelevant one, because Mary Jane isn't lost. He knows where she is, and only bad editorial decisions keep them apart. For now. I fear the future.
    When I became a man I put away childish things, including the fear of childishness and the desire to be very grown up.-C.S.Lewis

  3. #63
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    Quote Originally Posted by Xenon View Post
    Honestly? I'm not so sure the concepts behind any of those are problematic. Peter has shown himself to be a little petty at times, and Jonah has made Spider-Man's life miserable for most of his existence, so giving him a bit of a comeuppance makes sense. Norman is an arrogant bastard who is responsible for almost literally every bad thing that has ever happened to Peter Parker at this point, tormenting him in that manner, again, seems like apt punishment. And Peter has always shown a bit of a self-loathing streak along with a compulsive need to confess his wrongdoings often enough, so screwing himself isn't that far off.

    With that said, the manner in which they went about it doesn't seem to have been good, but I can see where you're going with this.
    It's really the degree to which it comes across. All this stuff about how HoM is meant to represent what it is that they really want in life? It just doesn't feel right that Peter wants to be such a dick to Jonah and Norman over Harry's own well-being. Peter comes across as extremely unsympathetic in his tie-in mini.

    (And when I mean Peter is a dick, imagine the most exaggerated Jonah could ever possibly be. And remember that Peter had been treating Jonah and Norman like that for at least a decade.)

    If you ignore the tie-in mini and just read the main mini, he comes across much better. He freaks out when he realizes Gwen and Uncle Ben are supposed to be dead. He's miserable knowing Mary Jane is more successful in a world where she isn't with him. And there were some really nice friendship moments between Spidey and Luke Cage (that was totally lost after OMD).
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  4. #64
    Senior Member Xenon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Confuzzled Mutie View Post
    1) So, you stand by Stan despite what he did to Gwen? Which was slowly and steadily destroy every part of her appeal until she was just left a miserable husk? For, it may have been GC who actually threw Gwen off the bridge, but he wouldn't have done so if Stan hadn't massacred the character's personality before he even arrived on board.
    2) You are talking as if all those writers brought Gwen back to life, going by your explanation of them "disregarding Conway". Btw, you just mentioned two and made it sound like a lot by saying "whoever".
    3) What are you talking about? It is only the Ben Reilly dying bit which has been retconned out of continuity from the first Clone saga. The elements with Peter/MJ/Gwen clone are all still intact, as far as I know.
    4) And your idea of Gwen always being Peter's OTL isn't pure fanboyism, buoyed by a couple of writers agreeing with you? Heck, even JMS prefers Peter and MJ together as he find them to be a great team together and the poor guy was forced to pen the abortion that was OMD. So how is it "fanboyism" to say that whenever Peter and MJ are separated, they are always expected to bounce back from the setbacks and reconcile?
    1) Yes. Because what he did to Gwen is vastly overstated.
    2) I mentioned three. I don't have the patience to go through and find all the other appearances by Gwen or dealing with Peter's feelings about her. There's one in the 200s, there's another in the Clone Saga, I'm sure there are others but I can't be bothered. And it's possible to disregard only the bad stuff and not the good.
    3) Gerry Conway wrote the High Evolutionary issues where clone Gwen isn't really clone Gwen. Which of course was retconned to be a lie.
    4) No, it's not. Your post is obvious fanboyism because it's just a speech about how great they are unprompted and irrelevant to the converstaion. I have no problem with Peter and Mary Jane.


    Umm, yeah, that was the battle? Which MJ was created in order to lose, so as to make Gwen look good? (And Stan didn't even get that much entirely right.) Okay, I guess you need delusions of this scale if you insist on obsessing about a mediocre character gone way before your time. (Which is such a needlessly futile exercise anyway and I simply cannot understand the logic behind).
    I'm not the one who's clearly contradicting what's on the printed page. Gwen and Mary Jane vy for Peter's affections. Gwen wins. Fight over. The only reason MJ got a round two was because Conway was a sore loser and killed the winner. Again, delusions aren't mine.

    Also, you misunderstand the purpose of Mary Jane Watson. She wasn't created to lose. She was created to muck up his love life. Which she did. Then Conway decided to take her seriously because he was young and naiive. =p


    A sore loser who is just believed to have penned the greatest Spider-Man tale of all time. (A discussion which we have had before). A sore loser whose decision of bumping off a character had such a major impact that it brought about the end of an entire era? A sore loser whose coupling of two characters has now become the default and most recognized of couplings not just in the series itself but in all of comics, thanks to his incredible foresight? Man, I wouldn't mind being that kind of a sore loser! =p
    All of this is true, except for that bit about foresight. What's your point? A good result can come about because of a bad motivation. Heck, 121-122 are my favorite Spider-Man comics of all time. They're damn impressive. That doesn't mean Conway wasn't just killing her because he's a sore loser. =p

    Not really. Gwen will always be significant as the catalyst who brought Peter and MJ together. Even if he does love MJ more, he wouldn't have known that love if he hadn't lost Gwen. And that is the beauty of most tragedies. That there remains hope for better, maybe something even better than before! It doesn't take away anything from the mythos, all it does is take away from your inane fanboyism.
    That's not a tragedy.If losing something lets you get something better, then you didn't really lose. You have to lose for it to be a tragedy. You want to weaken the series so it fits your narrow preferred version of the series, just like a certain former Editor in Chief of Marvel.

    The only one who's fanboyism is being threatened here is yours. Because it's being threatened by THE TRUTH! =p
    Last edited by Xenon; 04-22-2012 at 05:02 PM.
    When I became a man I put away childish things, including the fear of childishness and the desire to be very grown up.-C.S.Lewis

  5. #65

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kevinroc View Post
    The thing is that people use "HoM" as some kind of support for "this is what Peter really wants." That isn't the case because this would be taken from Peter's mind when HoM happened in continuity. Peter had already experienced a large amount of growth and wasn't the kid from Amazing Fantasy #15 by that point.

    And that, in no way, shape or form, would Peter Parker care more about being a dick to Jonah and Norman than care about Harry being alive and well. This guy tortures himself over everything and blames himself for everything but he conveniently forgets Harry ever existed? (Remember that Harry was dead at this point in time as far as Peter knew.)
    I don't think that's correct - the Peter in the HoM world would be as if he was born and raised there - he didn't have memories of being 616-Peter so he would have none of the growth and experience (any memories he DID have of 616 were from dreams - so they would be more like memories from a past life than anything).
    Last edited by Probalus; 04-22-2012 at 05:18 PM.

  6. #66
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    Quote Originally Posted by Probalus View Post
    I don't think that's correct - the Peter in the HoM world would be as if he was born and raise there - he didn't have memories of being 616-Peter so he would have none of the growth and experience (any memories he DID have of 616 were from dreams - so they would be more like memories from a past life than anything).
    The argument is that HoM-Peter has the life that 616-Peter secretly desires for himself. So by this logic, HoM-Peter is the fantasy version with the life 616-Peter wants.
    The monster saved them all. And in their fear, they betrayed him. As they always have. As they always will.

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  7. #67

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kevinroc View Post
    The argument is that HoM-Peter has the life that 616-Peter secretly desires for himself. So by this logic, HoM-Peter is the fantasy version with the life 616-Peter wants.
    Right - and the life he wanted, if HoM is to be believed, is one where Uncle Ben never died and he never had to learn that power & responsibility lesson. So as such, he wouldn't need to have the sense of responsibility of being Spider-Man also. And he acted the way he would had he been a celebrity the whole time.

    Basically HoM changed the events that happen. It doesn't change the people themselves. And HoM Peter is a version of 616 Peter where the ideal events happened (people don't die). Doesn't mean he actually liked what he becomes in that world.
    Last edited by Probalus; 04-22-2012 at 05:30 PM.

  8. #68
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    Quote Originally Posted by Probalus View Post
    Right - and the life he wanted, if HoM is to be believed, is one where Uncle Ben never died and he never had to learn that power & responsibility lesson. So as such, he wouldn't need to have the sense of responsibility of being Spider-Man also. And he acted the way he would had he been a celebrity the whole time.
    But that logic doesn't work because Dr. Strange doesn't go right back to being a complete ****. (You ever read Dr. Strange's origin? He was even worse than Peter Parker was.)

    The logic is supposed to be you get the life that you want within your heart of hearts. Peter didn't get any such thing according to his tie-in mini. He was a complete ****. But nobody else was like that.
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  9. #69
    Releasing Johnny's torch Ravin' Ray's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mister Mets View Post
    If travelling between dimensions is possible, they could also send the Ultimate Gwen Stacy back in time a few years to avoid the age difference thing.

    Hell, they could reveal that someone currently in the book is really Ultimate Gwen Stacy.
    No, NO, NO! I'm not currently following Ultimate Gwen, but last time didn't she dye her hair black and move out with Aunt May to Paris on Stark's dime? If we're talking about this Gwen, then she'd have memories about Peter dying and all the kids (Peter, Bobby, and Kitty) moving in and palling up with Peter. She'd be a loose cannon in 616 unless she got mindwiped.
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  10. #70

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kevinroc View Post
    But that logic doesn't work because Dr. Strange doesn't go right back to being a complete ****. (You ever read Dr. Strange's origin? He was even worse than Peter Parker was.)
    Simply explained, something else might have happened to change him.

    The logic is supposed to be you get the life that you want within your heart of hearts. Peter didn't get any such thing according to his tie-in mini. He was a complete ****. But nobody else was like that.
    Again, the logic is quite clear from the HoM mini for Spidey. People do stay true to character in the HoM universe - and Peter did also, its just that he had a crappy character to start with that did not develop in that universe. But he still got the family and the situation he wanted.

  11. #71
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    Quote Originally Posted by Probalus View Post
    Simply explained, something else might have happened to change him.
    You really don't have an answer.

    Again, the logic is quite clear from the HoM mini for Spidey. People do stay true to character in the HoM universe - and Peter did also, its just that he had a crappy character to start with that did not develop in that universe.
    The Spidey HoM mini does not work at all with the main HoM mini since the Spidey mini ends with Peter faking suicide and going underground and the main HoM mini has Peter and his family just walking down the streets of New York and Peter being recognized. They do not fit together at all.

    Never mind how differently Peter comes across in his spotlight mini as opposed to the main mini.

    (Besides which, the whole thing was a Doom plot anyway. So we can sweep the whole mess under the rug as Doom trolling them all.)
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  12. #72
    BAMF!!!!! KurtW95's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ravin' Ray View Post
    No, NO, NO! I'm not currently following Ultimate Gwen, but last time didn't she dye her hair black and move out with Aunt May to Paris on Stark's dime? If we're talking about this Gwen, then she'd have memories about Peter dying and all the kids (Peter, Bobby, and Kitty) moving in and palling up with Peter. She'd be a loose cannon in 616 unless she got mindwiped.
    Yep. SHort black hair. I don't want her coming to 616. I want the real Gwen back!!
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  13. #73
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    Quote Originally Posted by KurtW95 View Post
    Yep. SHort black hair. I don't want her coming to 616. I want the real Gwen back!!
    But if Gwen comes back, she doesn't get to be the main female anymore. She'll be Lisanna from the Fairy Tail manga/anime series.
    The monster saved them all. And in their fear, they betrayed him. As they always have. As they always will.

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  14. #74

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kevinroc View Post
    You really don't have an answer.

    The Spidey HoM mini does not work at all with the main HoM mini since the Spidey mini ends with Peter faking suicide and going underground and the main HoM mini has Peter and his family just walking down the streets of New York and Peter being recognized. They do not fit together at all.
    Its a continuity error. Those things are dime a dozen in comics. Unfortunate but true. The main mini has his bald head (though that contradicts the Spidey mini at that point in time) and him married to Gwen so you can chalk off parts of it to be true, even if the events are messed up.

    Never mind how differently Peter comes across in his spotlight mini as opposed to the main mini.
    Peter did get character development over the course of his mini, you know. That made him change.

    (Besides which, the whole thing was a Doom plot anyway. So we can sweep the whole mess under the rug as Doom trolling them all.)
    Again, when was it said that Doom directly plotted the whole thing? He messed with her mind but did he give her directions to make an alternate universe where Magneto was his boss too?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ravin' Ray View Post
    No, NO, NO! I'm not currently following Ultimate Gwen, but last time didn't she dye her hair black and move out with Aunt May to Paris on Stark's dime? If we're talking about this Gwen, then she'd have memories about Peter dying and all the kids (Peter, Bobby, and Kitty) moving in and palling up with Peter. She'd be a loose cannon in 616 unless she got mindwiped.
    She had her trademark long blond hair in her most recent appearance (USM#8 was it?)

  15. #75
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kevinroc View Post
    But if Gwen comes back, she doesn't get to be the main female anymore.
    Sure she does.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kevinroc View Post
    She'll be Lisanna from the Fairy Tail manga/anime series.
    I have no idea what you're talking about.
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