Thread Drift: Ultimate Gwen Stacy and Peter Parker's Love Life

[John Ossie]

See, she's not worth talking about, so I don't know why people bring her up, even to mention that she hasn't been brought up. Hector Ayala hasn't been brought up in a long time either, what's your point? Her not showing up isn't news, it's normal. =p

That is the major difference.

Lol dude I only mentioned Carlie because someone else did I never said it was news merely mentioned it lol, there wasn't supposed to be any point to it at all lol.

As for what B is about well we'll just have to wait and see what happens lol.

[CyberHubbs]

See, she's not worth talking about, so I don't know why people bring her up, even to mention that she hasn't been brought up. Hector Ayala hasn't been brought up in a long time either, what's your point? Her not showing up isn't news, it's normal. =p

That...doesn't make sense. She's showed up regularly up to the Vulture arc.

[Confuzzled Mutie]

I don't even remember Deb in the 90s cartoon, to be honest, only Felicia and Mary Jane.

90s cartoon Debra played a significant role, especially in the first season. Spectacular Gwen was basically a younger version of 90s cartoon Debra, only difference being Gwen was a love interest for Peter in SSM and Debra was his friendly rival and love interest for Flash in SM:TAS. Her intellect was hinted to be even superior to that of Peter in the series. And since I watched the 90s cartoon before getting into the comics, I have a fond memory of its interpretation of Debra and actually thought her to be of "Flash Thompson caliber" importance in the Spidey franchise. So I was pretty much surprised that before Civil War, she had just one short stint in the 80s.

There's literally nothing about either modern interpretation of Gwen that resembles Deb Whitman beyond Spectacular's Gwen wearing glasses, and that's an extremely shallow comparison.

Maybe not in the comics, but as I said 90s cartoon Deb = Spectacular Gwen. It is pretty much the exact same character, except for the age and relationship with Peter. Which is why Spectacular Gwen was soo been there, done that, for me. Sure enough, as soon as MJ made her appearance on the show, it just solidified my belief as to who was the better match for Peter, and no, the answer was not Gwen. But that is another discussion altogether.

My point about Gwen is that there's a difference between a change and simply a revelation. Gwen simply isn't developed in very many areas, we know so little about her (which is likely where a large portion of the love/hate for her originate) that saying that post-mortem revelations aren't really her but simply changes that were lifted from another character strikes me as a bit hollow. You can't change what doesn't exist. To use a Mary Jane example, her revelation in the 250s of her past was not a rose-tinted CHANGE to her past, it was simply new information. Before that point, we just didn't know. She could have been a rich girl with perfect parents, we just didn't know. MOST of Gwen's personality is like that. We know how she behaves in a relationship, we know she's a science major, but we don't know much else. Things like her intelligence just are unknowns, so saying that "she was smart", isn't really a change, it's just giving you new information, like learning that MJ had a broken past is giving you new information.

While I understand why, as a Gwen fan, you would like to believe it is more a case of development vs. underdevelopment, it really isn't all that simple. Blue denotes Gwen as self-assured, confident and wise when it comes to academia. Shouldn't some of those traits spill over to her overall personality as well? Those character aspects are general and universal enough to break out of compartmentalization and exclusivity just to the area of academia. Shouldn't some of those traits be a reflection of her personality during the Stan Lee era. But the reality is, she was a mess in the Silver Age. During the Ditko era she was abrasive and unpleasant and the Romita years took her to the other extreme level on the empowerment scale. It is hard to believe that Blue and Spectacular are about the same character if you are into continuity. You took the MJ example. However, tales like "Parallel Lives" establish MJ's flighty Silver Age personality as just a mask for her vulnerability. Which is development as it adds layers to the character. In Gwen's case, though, incompatible traits were introduced which go against the previous behaviour displayed by the person. If she was so intelligent and independent, why was she so horrid when it came to handling a relationship? If you think about it, that kind of makes her personality in Blue a facade for the behavior she displayed in the Silver Age. That is the only way I am able to connect the two interpretations- Gwen is actually the reverse-MJ in terms of psychological exploration through the years. Mary Jane put on a mask during the Silver Age, Gwen's mask was explored posthumously in Blue and her inner weaknesses were on display for all to see during the Silver Age. This method of thinking really reduces the relevance of Spider-Man: Blue (I never saw the point in giving additional traits to a character posthumously anyway. Gwen belongs in the past and we already knew how important she was to Peter and MJ with or without Loeb telling us about it so what was the need for it really? Other than to produce some excellent Tim Sale artwork of Spidey and friends of course! ). But this is the only manner in which I will be able to accept Blue Gwen as being compatible with Silver Age Gwen and being the one and the same character.

[Ravin' Ray]

See, she's not worth talking about, so I don't know why people bring her up, even to mention that she hasn't been brought up.

I was just trying to trigger the Carlie supporters (and we know they're out there) to speak up. But they've been as silent as her…

[Confuzzled Mutie]

I was just trying to trigger the Carlie supporters (and we know they're out there) to speak up. But they've been as silent as her…

I wouldn't mind Carlie filling out the now vacant George Stacy/ Jean DeWolff "cop sympathizer" role in the Spideyverse. She would be more dynamic than those two characters as she is aware of Spider-Man's identity and was in a relationship with him. Could make for some pretty neat plot lines. As long as her future relationship with Peter continues to be strictly platonic of course.

[Ravin' Ray]

I wouldn't mind Carlie filling out the now vacant George Stacy/ Jean DeWolff "cop sympathizer" role in the Spideyverse.

With Watanabe on her self-imposed LOA we've heard zip from her OR the Wraith. Unless she decides to visit Houston…

[KurtW95]

I was just trying to trigger the Carlie supporters (and we know they're out there) to speak up. But they've been as silent as her…

I don't think there are. LOL

[Probalus]

While I understand why, as a Gwen fan, you would like to believe it is more a case of development vs. underdevelopment, it really isn't all that simple. Blue denotes Gwen as self-assured, confident and wise when it comes to academia. Shouldn't some of those traits spill over to her overall personality as well? Those character aspects are general and universal enough to break out of compartmentalization and exclusivity just to the area of academia. Shouldn't some of those traits be a reflection of her personality during the Stan Lee era. But the reality is, she was a mess in the Silver Age. During the Ditko era she was abrasive and unpleasant and the Romita years took her to the other extreme level on the empowerment scale. It is hard to believe that Blue and Spectacular are about the same character if you are into continuity. You took the MJ example. However, tales like "Parallel Lives" establish MJ's flighty Silver Age personality as just a mask for her vulnerability. Which is development as it adds layers to the character. In Gwen's case, though, incompatible traits were introduced which go against the previous behaviour displayed by the person. If she was so intelligent and independent, why was she so horrid when it came to handling a relationship? If you think about it, that kind of makes her personality in Blue a facade for the behavior she displayed in the Silver Age. That is the only way I am able to connect the two interpretations- Gwen is actually the reverse-MJ in terms of psychological exploration through the years. Mary Jane put on a mask during the Silver Age, Gwen's mask was explored posthumously in Blue and her inner weaknesses were on display for all to see during the Silver Age. This method of thinking really reduces the relevance of Spider-Man: Blue (I never saw the point in giving additional traits to a character posthumously anyway. Gwen belongs in the past and we already knew how important she was to Peter and MJ with or without Loeb telling us about it so what was the need for it really? Other than to produce some excellent Tim Sale artwork of Spidey and friends of course! ). But this is the only manner in which I will be able to accept Blue Gwen as being compatible with Silver Age Gwen and being the one and the same character.

So basically, you don't like a character so you don't want the writers to write about them is what you're saying...

Because really, based on your logic, why write biographies of a dead person? A dead guy is dead, right? Don't they belong in the past too? Heck, why read history at all? All that is in the past.

I think that in Gwen's case, she was never given the chance to be written or characterized in a modern context, unlike the rest of Spidey's supporting cast. Spider-Man: Blue was meant to provide that.

[Confuzzled Mutie]

So basically, you don't like a character so you don't want the writers to write about them is what you're saying...

Because really, based on your logic, why write biographies of a dead person? A dead guy is dead, right? Don't they belong in the past too? Heck, why read history at all? All that is in the past.

Yes, for real life individuals and minor fictional characters are totally the same thing, right? Plus, it isn't about me hating stories about characters I don't care for as much as what does Spider-Man: Blue really contribute to the Spidey mythos?

I think that in Gwen's case, she was never given the chance to be written or characterized in a modern context, unlike the rest of Spidey's supporting cast. Spider-Man: Blue was meant to provide that.

Or Jeph Loeb was just a fan and made an attempt to establish Gwen as Peter's "One True Love". Though not by any means a travesty of a tale, there are some major flaws in Blue. For one, it defies continuity. By the point of his wedding, Peter had truly moved on from the tragedy of losing Gwen though he always kept her in his heart. A healthy way of dealing with loss. This notion of Peter still pining for Gwen over his living, breathing wife (who has everything going for her, at that) makes him appear as a miserable figure just reluctant to move on from his past. And for a series which mainly deals with "coming of age" (moving on from naivete and the stage of ignorant innocence, which to me defines the Peter/Gwen love story) and "living up to your responsibilities" (Peter fulfilling his love to Mary Jane, the woman he shared his vows with), Blue is a major anomaly as it tramples on both of those major themes of the Spidey mythos. All for what? Getting to know Gwen was good in science? How is that in any way an excuse for the way she behaved in the Silver Age?

Look, it is kind of unfair that Gwen didn't get the opportunity to shine as a character, I get that. But compensating for it by compromising Peter and Mary Jane's relationship, their love for each other or their individual character traits is definitely not the way to go. It is tales like Blue which insist on blatantly declaring that Peter has greater feelings for one of his loves over the other which add fuel to the fan divide over aspects of the series. Why couldn't it just be that Peter truly loved Gwen when he was young, the first woman he truly loved, was devastated when he lost her but moved on when he found love in an unlikely place, when he fell in love with a woman totally dissimilar to Gwen, a woman he didn't bother to see past her made up social facade until she was there for him as a true friend when he needed one the most? Why couldn't just that much be enough? It respects both Gwen and Mary Jane. Why should the two have to compete for Peter's feelings? This is not Archie or Twilight after all.

Having said that, I do admit that I am partial to Mary Jane as I think her to be the more wholesome, charismatic character and a better fit for Peter/Spider-Man. But still, I really believe there is some substance to the points I just made.

[Xenon]

Hector Ayala was killed years ago. (It happened in Daredevil.)

I know. THey could still talk about their old buddy Hector...or something....

That...doesn't make sense. She's showed up regularly up to the Vulture arc.

Every appearance of Carlie is abnormal. That's the point.

While I understand why, as a Gwen fan, you would like to believe it is more a case of development vs. underdevelopment, it really isn't all that simple. Blue denotes Gwen as self-assured, confident and wise when it comes to academia. Shouldn't some of those traits spill over to her overall personality as well? Those character aspects are general and universal enough to break out of compartmentalization and exclusivity just to the area of academia. Shouldn't some of those traits be a reflection of her personality during the Stan Lee era. But the reality is, she was a mess in the Silver Age.

No? I'm the smartest damn thing to ever have walked my High School's halls (well, besides this one kid a year younger than me who was a mathematical genius), you think I could get a date (hint: No)? This doesn't even make sense as a logic. I have the utmost confidence if you want to discuss Gundam or most Video Games, but you wanna talk NASCAR and I'm going to get a little sketchy. Intelligence and Confidence in one area doesn't necessarily translate into another area, and it's ridiculous to even suggest that.

During the Ditko era she was abrasive and unpleasant and the Romita years took her to the other extreme level on the empowerment scale.

Oh yes, because she was never abrasive to anybody during the Romita years. -_- Nope. Never insulted protesters or chewed out Aunt May, or got in fights with Peter because he didn't 100% support her hate of Spider-Man, or threatened Mary Jane. Nope. None of that happened.

It is hard to believe that Blue and Spectacular are about the same character if you are into continuity. You took the MJ example. However, tales like "Parallel Lives" establish MJ's flighty Silver Age personality as just a mask for her vulnerability. Which is development as it adds layers to the character. In Gwen's case, though, incompatible traits were introduced which go against the previous behaviour displayed by the person. If she was so intelligent and independent, why was she so horrid when it came to handling a relationship? If you think about it, that kind of makes her personality in Blue a facade for the behavior she displayed in the Silver Age. That is the only way I am able to connect the two interpretations- Gwen is actually the reverse-MJ in terms of psychological exploration through the years. Mary Jane put on a mask during the Silver Age, Gwen's mask was explored posthumously in Blue and her inner weaknesses were on display for all to see during the Silver Age. This method of thinking really reduces the relevance of Spider-Man: Blue (I never saw the point in giving additional traits to a character posthumously anyway. Gwen belongs in the past and we already knew how important she was to Peter and MJ with or without Loeb telling us about it so what was the need for it really? Other than to produce some excellent Tim Sale artwork of Spidey and friends of course! ). But this is the only manner in which I will be able to accept Blue Gwen as being compatible with Silver Age Gwen and being the one and the same character.

The short version of this is "I don't like her and willl do everything in my power to continue no liking including ignoring facts that are presented". Again, this connection you're trying ot make between intelligence and relationship savvy is perhaps the dumbest connection I've ever even heard try to be made (no offense intended, but that is a huge whopper if I ever saw one). I mean, it's like you've never met a nerd in your life.

And even ignoring nerds, lets point out the millions of divorces each year, many of which happen to intelligent people. I mean, the more I think of this connection you're trying to make, the more I have to keep my jaw from dropping to the floor. REALLY? Confidence in Academics translating to Relationship ability? Go rethink that one for me, will ya?

I was just trying to trigger the Carlie supporters (and we know they're out there) to speak up. But they've been as silent as her…

See....

I don't think there are. LOL

^kurt.

Blue[/I]. For one, it defies continuity. By the point of his wedding, Peter had truly moved on from the tragedy of losing Gwen though he always kept her in his heart.
A healthy way of dealing with loss. This notion of Peter still pining for Gwen over his living, breathing wife (who has everything going for her, at that) makes him appear as a miserable figure just reluctant to move on from his past. And for a series which mainly deals with "coming of age" (moving on from naivete and the stage of ignorant innocence, which to me defines the Peter/Gwen love story) and "living up to your responsibilities" (Peter fulfilling his love to Mary Jane, the woman he shared his vows with), Blue is a major anomaly as it tramples on both of those major themes of the Spidey mythos. All for what? Getting to know Gwen was good in science? How is that in any way an excuse for the way she behaved in the Silver Age?

This is demonstrably false. Even in the Wedding Annual, he never truly deals with Gwen's death and the danger he puts Mary Jane in. It's presented as the big "will he do it" point of the annual, and it's never truly resolved. After this point the fact that he hasn't moved on is brought up several times. In the last several issues I've read, it's been brought up twice. Once by Spider-Man 17 which implies that he loves Gwen more than Mary Jane and again in back ups to Web of Spider-Man (I think...) where Diablo taunts him with resurrecting the people he's lost (Gwen and Ben are the two that appear). Actually three times, as Mysterio makes him hallucinate in the 30th anniversary issue of Amazing and Gwen appears in that as well (though as part of an ensemble).

Simply put, the idea that he has "moved on" is ridiculous. As it's never been seriously presented that way, at least not consistently. Gerry Conway is the only one to suggest it, but both the fact that they're dealing with clones and the fact that no one else ever picks up on it, those episodes simply appear to be the lull in the emotional roller coaster.

Look, it is kind of unfair that Gwen didn't get the opportunity to shine as a character, I get that. But compensating for it by compromising Peter and Mary Jane's relationship, their love for each other or their individual character traits is definitely not the way to go. It is tales like Blue which insist on blatantly declaring that Peter has greater feelings for one of his loves over the other which add fuel to the fan divide over aspects of the series. Why couldn't it just be that Peter truly loved Gwen when he was young, the first woman he truly loved, was devastated when he lost her but moved on when he found love in an unlikely place, when he fell in love with a woman totally dissimilar to Gwen, a woman he didn't bother to see past her made up social facade until she was there for him as a true friend when he needed one the most? Why couldn't just that much be enough? It respects both Gwen and Mary Jane. Why should the two have to compete for Peter's feelings? This is not Archie or Twilight after all.

Having said that, I do admit that I am partial to Mary Jane as I think her to be the more wholesome, charismatic character and a better fit for Peter/Spider-Man. But still, I really believe there is some substance to the points I just made.

There isn't. The second part here is just "cmon, do it my way because I like her better". The ironic part here is that you complain about tearing down Peter x Mary Jane when you're entire argument has essentially been an attempt to tear down Gwen by claiming everything in later works is just biased retcons. You're repeated attempts to tear her down aren't based in any evidence in the series, but simply you desperately trying to make the facts fit your biases.

With that said, definitive attempts to put Gwen higher on the pedestal of love come from a few different places. The fact that Gwen won when they were directly competing, for one. A preference for her by some, for another. But perhaps most importantly, she's dead. Which is the key fact here and part of the reason why I vehemently oppose any resurrection of Gwen Stacy. If Peter loved Gwen more, then the fact that she died and he was left with his second choice makes the tragedy more powerful, adds a bit of tension to the marriage, and acts as a bit of a karmic balance (Mary Jane actually gets him, but Gwen gets more of his heart). In that way, they do both win. Mary Jane gets the practical victory, Gwen gets the moral one. Of course, that also means they both lose something, but that's probably why some prefer that way, because Gwen is guaranteed to lose the practical one. Cause she's dead. =O

Are those arguments correct? I dunno. I have my opinion on it, of course, but that's not really my point. You can disagree with the premise of Blue (that Peter loves Gwen more), without attacking Gwen's character. Which was my whole point this whole time. It's fine to have an opinion, but make sure it fits the facts.

[Kevinroc]

Xenon, who does Peter love more? Aunt May or Uncle Ben?

[Probalus]

IThis is demonstrably false. Even in the Wedding Annual, he never truly deals with Gwen's death and the danger he puts Mary Jane in. It's presented as the big "will he do it" point of the annual, and it's never truly resolved. After this point the fact that he hasn't moved on is brought up several times. In the last several issues I've read, it's been brought up twice. Once by Spider-Man 17 which implies that he loves Gwen more than Mary Jane and again in back ups to Web of Spider-Man (I think...) where Diablo taunts him with resurrecting the people he's lost (Gwen and Ben are the two that appear). Actually three times, as Mysterio makes him hallucinate in the 30th anniversary issue of Amazing and Gwen appears in that as well (though as part of an ensemble).

Also in the House of M, Peter's ideal world has him married to Gwen, and Mary Jane's just some actress hired to play Gwen in a Spider-Man move.

[Kevinroc]

Also in the House of M, Peter's ideal world has him married to Gwen, and Mary Jane's just some actress hired to play Gwen in a Spider-Man move.

In case you missed the whole point, House of M was supposed to be the character's getting what they thought they wanted but they were even more unhappy than they were in the actual Marvel Universe.

(Plus it was a Doom plot. You can't trust Doom.)

[Confuzzled Mutie]

No? I'm the smartest damn thing to ever have walked my High School's halls (well, besides this one kid a year younger than me who was a mathematical genius), you think I could get a date (hint: No)? This doesn't even make sense as a logic. Intelligence and Confidence in one area doesn't necessarily translate into another area, and it's ridiculous to even suggest that.

Fact is, Gwen wasn't denoted as socially inept in Blue. She was self-assured and confident, not just in her academic knowledge, but also with her relationship with Peter. I just framed the words in that manner as Blue emphasized on Gwen's intelligence, but it also made her generally confident, easy going and as a matter of fact, everything against what was previously depicted of her. Hence, not in character.

Oh yes, because she was never abrasive to anybody during the Romita years. -_- Nope. Never insulted protesters or chewed out Aunt May, or got in fights with Peter because he didn't 100% support her hate of Spider-Man, or threatened Mary Jane. Nope. None of that happened.

Who cares. She sucked throughout the Silver Age. Do we have to draw Venn Diagrams to properly specify her various ways of suckage during the different runs of the time?

The short version of this is "I don't like her and willl do everything in my power to continue no liking including ignoring facts that are presented".

Actually, my Gwen dislike/ambivalence comes pretty naturally to me regardless. I have tried liking her, especially after watching SSM, but then I read the actual 616 stories she has been in, and I can't help the red, painful flashes of "ALBATROSS! ALBATROSS! ALBATROSS!" searing through my mind each and every time. Also, I find it highly ironic that you have a need to underline my hate for Gwen when you started this debate because of a post where I was actually praising an iteration of Gwen (Ultimate Gwen), which in turn was after a post where I tried to genuinely comfort a Gwen fan by pointing out that he still got Ultimate Gwen playing a significant role.

Again, this connection you're trying ot make between intelligence and relationship savvy is perhaps the dumbest connection I've ever even heard try to be made (no offense intended, but that is a huge whopper if I ever saw one)...

And even ignoring nerds, lets point out the millions of divorces each year, many of which happen to intelligent people. I mean, the more I think of this connection you're trying to make, the more I have to keep my jaw from dropping to the floor. REALLY? Confidence in Academics translating to Relationship ability? Go rethink that one for me, will ya?

It was just a weirdly worded sentence, okay? Gwen is a million times more than your typical nerd personality in Blue, especially when it comes to self-esteem. Talk about going off on a tangent to prove your point. And you call me desperate? Weren't we having a discussion on Development vs. Underdevelopment. Fact remains that Blue totally gave Gwen incompatible traits or traits, which at their best, were just cosmetic in nature compared to her real self in the Silver Age. Now, Ultimate Gwen was at least an improvement of actual Gwen in the 616 universe.

This is demonstrably false. Even in the Wedding Annual, he never truly deals with Gwen's death and the danger he puts Mary Jane in. It's presented as the big "will he do it" point of the annual, and it's never truly resolved. After this point the fact that he hasn't moved on is brought up several times. In the last several issues I've read, it's been brought up twice. Once by Spider-Man 17 which implies that he loves Gwen more than Mary Jane and again in back ups to Web of Spider-Man (I think...) where Diablo taunts him with resurrecting the people he's lost (Gwen and Ben are the two that appear). Actually three times, as Mysterio makes him hallucinate in the 30th anniversary issue of Amazing and Gwen appears in that as well (though as part of an ensemble).

Simply put, the idea that he has "moved on" is ridiculous. As it's never been seriously presented that way, at least not consistently. Gerry Conway is the only one to suggest it, but both the fact that they're dealing with clones and the fact that no one else ever picks up on it, those episodes simply appear to be the lull in the emotional roller coaster.

The fact that he did end up getting married after pondering over it and making promises with MJ about being devoted to her for the rest of his life is not proof enough of him moving on with his life for you? That Diablo example is one of the best you can come up with when you try to defend your point about Peter loving Gwen more than MJ? Now who is the one desperately trying to defend his case?

With that said, definitive attempts to put Gwen higher on the pedestal of love come from a few different places. The fact that Gwen won when they were directly competing, for one. A preference for her by some, for another.

That first instance doesn't count as MJ didn't really stand a real chance. She was just meant to be a foil to the main love interest, she was bound to be the rejected one in the initial stage. That was why she was created for in the first place. The fact that tables were turned and she did end up being the love interest over the supposed love interest and managed to maintain that position for decades despite a change of writers is a true testament of how dynamic her relationship with Peter is. Sure Peter and MJ have had their rough patches just like any other couple, but the fact remains that they always get back together, they are always expected to get back together. Mary Jane Watson is the most popular Spider-Man love interest for a very good reason, despite competition from Felicia Hardy, Jill Stacy and many others over the years (including the possibility of a resurrected Gwen Stacy, which was what the first clone saga was all about anyways).

And the other instances are just personal preferences in the minority. It is amazing how you can downplay Gerry Conway's contributions but go on to defend Gwen's position as Peter's "One True Love" by bringing up obscure examples like SM 17 which have no bearing on the long run, unlike say, Conway's work.

There isn't. The second part here is just "cmon, do it my way because I like her better".

Actually I just put it in there to not come across as pretentious, which I was really trying not to. And that post wasn't even addressed to you, so..

The ironic part here is that you complain about tearing down Peter x Mary Jane when you're entire argument has essentially been an attempt to tear down Gwen by claiming everything in later works is just biased retcons. You're repeated attempts to tear her down aren't based in any evidence in the series, but simply you desperately trying to make the facts fit your biases.

Are those arguments correct? I dunno. I have my opinion on it, of course, but that's not really my point. You can disagree with the premise of Blue (that Peter loves Gwen more), without attacking Gwen's character. Which was my whole point this whole time. It's fine to have an opinion, but make sure it fits the facts.

Actually I wouldn't have a need to tear down Gwendolyn if I didn't have a basis for my argument in the series itself. You want to talk about facts? The facts remain that she was such a miserable character that she had to be thrown off a bridge in order to revitalize the series again. Blame it on the writers all you want, but hey, facts! If she had been THAT good a character, she would have been too dynamic to write into a stunted corner. If she had been that good a character, a writer like Gerry Conway, who is an excellent writer by all accords, wouldn't have found her exasperating and hopeless. If she had been that good a character, she wouldn't have allowed a mere tertiary character, who was just meant to be her foil, completely overshadow her in charisma and become a potential threat to her status quo. If she had been that good a character, her relationship with the lead would have been a million times more layered and interesting to read about. As Aunts May and Anna noted immediately during their first meeting, Mary Jane's vibrancy brought out the effervescence and spunk in Peter's personality, helping him break out of his shell like never before, even without his mask on. What does Gwen Stacy bring to Peter Parker anyways? Face it, if we are going to talk about this as if it were a battle between MJ and Gwen, then you cannot ignore the white elephant in the room- the fact that it was Gwen's battle to lose, and she lost. Spectacularly. Harsh, I know and I have been holding it back since the beginning as Gwen fans are deprived as it is without the fact of it being blatantly shoved into their faces, but you left me with no other choice.

But perhaps most importantly, she's dead. Which is the key fact here and part of the reason why I vehemently oppose any resurrection of Gwen Stacy. If Peter loved Gwen more, then the fact that she died and he was left with his second choice makes the tragedy more powerful, adds a bit of tension to the marriage, and acts as a bit of a karmic balance (Mary Jane actually gets him, but Gwen gets more of his heart). In that way, they do both win. Mary Jane gets the practical victory, Gwen gets the moral one. Of course, that also means they both lose something, but that's probably why some prefer that way, because Gwen is guaranteed to lose the practical one. Cause she's dead. =O

I'm sorry, but isn't this just a case of thinking along the lines of, "I lose, so you have to lose too!"? MJ and her relationship with Peter don't have to be compromised in any way necessary. Except just to appease Gwen fans and to hand them out condescending consolation.

[Probalus]

In case you missed the whole point, House of M was supposed to be the character's getting what they thought they wanted but they were even more unhappy than they were in the actual Marvel Universe.

(Plus it was a Doom plot. You can't trust Doom.)

I could have sworn the House of M was created by the Scarlet Witch, not Doom? I know he increased her powers but did he actually plan for her to create an alternate universe? And didn't Doom himself get the shaft in that world because he wasn't a mutant?

Regardless, Peter ended up happy in the Spider-Man: House of M miniseries (though there are debates as to whether that ending's canon or not). And the main thing that led to him being "unhappy" in the first place was that he was bothered by the memories of 616. And IIRC he was really pissed off when he finally did wake up from that dream.