Superboy: Who's your favourite?

[Theozilla]

I actually have to say, that that's kind of what I liked about Superboy's situation. Superboy was cloned from an evil man, but it had become a non-issue. How often do we see that in superhero comic books? Usually, it's some big thing that sticks with a character forever. The whole "daddy issues" thing has been done with so many other characters. It was done with Orion. It was done with Quicksilver and Scarlet Witch. It was done with Shand Chi. It was done with the Son of Satan (and just try topping that one for "most evil dad"). It was done, most famously, with Luke Skywalker. They're doing it right now in the Young Justice cartoon with Artemis. That's one of the biggest problems I had with the revamp of Superboy in the pages of Teen Titans. I felt like he had been changed into a character I had already seen in a million other places.

My other big problem is who they chose to be the DNA donor. Okay, I know there are a lot of Luthor fans around here. I know he's supposed to be Superman's archenemy and an important character. However, I don't think I've ever really enjoyed any of the Luthor stories I've read. He's just not a fun villian to read about. Yet, DC seems to use him in everything Superman-related anyway. But then, I prefer my DC super-villians over-the-top and colorful. Luthor's just so low-key in everything except his exposure.

What about The Black Ring arc with Luthor? That did not even tickle your fancy?

[Fate's Faith]

Need to get him out of that electric suit first and foremost.

Oh man, not more suit talk! Just kidding. But I like it. I was afraid the whole team was going to adopt them but eventually I'd like for him to make his own suit once we're done with NOWHERE. But at the moment, I think it works for where he is. Once he strikes out on his own maybe. I don't want to see a t-shirt and jeans but maybe a combination of the TRON suit with the Kesel one? Though I like the idea of adopting different suits as he moves away from his origins that evolves. Let us enjoy his search for his iconic look. Wonder how it would look with a jacket and shades.

[C-Dot]

By the middle 90's Westfield was a afterthought. I see why DC switch the DNA to Luthor because it is a character that will always be there and would always make Conner unsure about what is his true personality.

They were kinda caught between a rock and a hard place with Superboy. I don't think they saw him as a character that would be around as long as he has when he was created back in 92 so they had to switch tactics and origins in the way they did.

That is wrong.

Number one was that Superboy's personality had nothing to do with who he was cloned from. That was stated plain as day in the book and shown many a time. And being cloned from Westfield did not make Kon think he was evil at all like all the Luthor angst in Titans. The addition of Luthor made it about his genes and that was plain wrong.

Number two is that Westfield was not an afterthought when he was a FEATURED villain aka the Westfields of Hypertime in "Hypertension" in the mid 90's. He was STILL present via Amanda Spence, his daughter, whose entire motive was to destroy Superboy because of Westfield. Westfield was even present in the Doomsboy story....the 99th issue before #100. And not to mention the storyline before all of this that had potential for a Westfield return (Dabney Donovan keeping Westfield's genetic material).

They were not "caught between a rock and a hard place". Luthor had no idea what was going on and had no place in Superboy's origin at all. It was that very fact that led to Johns' idea about Luthor being refused twice in the letters page and his pitch to DC.

One actually had a place in Superboy (head of the org that created Superboy, wanted a Superman to replace the dead) and the other did not (wanted Superman dead and personally stopped Cadmus from cloning him). It doesn't matter if it's Lex, Darkseid, Brainiac, etc. Westfield was Superboy's villain in his own story.

[Theozilla]

That is wrong.

Number one was that Superboy's personality had nothing to do with who he was cloned from. That was stated plain as day in the book and shown.

Number two is that Westfield was not an afterthought when he was a FEATURED villain aka the Westfields of Hypertime in "Hypertension" in the mid 90's. He was STILL present via Amanda Spence, his daughter, whose entire motive was to destroy Superboy because of Westfield. Westfield was even present in the Doomsboy story....the 99th issue before #100.

They were not "caught between a rock and a hard place". Luthor had no idea what was going on and had no place in Superboy's origin at all. It was that very fact that led to Johns' idea about Luthor being refused twice.

One actually had a place in Superboy and the other did not. It doesn't matter if it's Lex, Darkseid, Brainiac, etc. Westfield was Superboy's villain in his own story.

I don't think Lexrules meant that Westfield was important to Superboy's character in terms of personality, but rather in terms of general description/iconicity. If one describes Superboy to a person with only a formal familiarity of DC Comics as a "clone of Superman based off the DNA of some random human scientist" they have much less of a (familiarity) "reaction" than Superboy described as "a clone of Superman and Lex Luthor".

[AdamYJ]

What about The Black Ring arc with Luthor? That did not even tickle your fancy?

I don't even remember it. "Black Ring"? Is that some Green Lantern related thing?

[C-Dot]

I don't think Lexrules meant that Westfield was important to Superboy's character in terms of personality, but rather in terms of general description/iconicity. If one describes Superboy to a person with only a formal familiarity of DC Comics as a "clone of Superman based off the DNA of some random human scientist" they have much less of a (familiarity) "reaction" than Superboy described as "a clone of Superman and Lex Luthor".

But A: he wasn't a clone of Superman and B: Westfield wasn't a "random human scientist". He wasn't a scientist period (that was one of Johns' goofs).

From 1993 to 2003, the description was "clone based on Superman" (not "of"). "The closest genetic equivalent of Superman science could create". "Human clone created in Superman's image". "Clone made to be the next Superman". And so on. The mere fact that "Superman" is there is the point of it. That the character is based on Superman.

Superboy was introduced as a "clone of Superman" because each of the four Supermen were being touted as "Superman reborn". But it was revealed early that he wasn't Superman reborn just like all the others (only one of the Supermen had Kryptonian DNA). His genes/look/powers were based on Superman and his DNA was radically changed to be genetically similar, but he was not Superman's clone (even the book said "the most common misconception is that Superboy's a clone of Superman").

[Ice Wolf]

But A: he wasn't a clone of Superman and B: Westfield wasn't a "random human scientist". He wasn't a scientist period (that was one of Johns' goofs).

From 1993 to 2003, it was "clone based on Superman" (not "of"). "The closest genetic equivalent of Superman science could create". "Human clone created in Superman's image". "Clone made to be the next Superman". And so on. The mere fact that "Superman" is there is the point of it. That the character is based on Superman and not a clone (even the book said "the most common misconception is that Superboy's a clone of Superman").

Superboy was introduced as a "clone of Superman" because each of the four Supermen were being touted as "Superman reborn". But the first storyline he was in showed that he wasn't Superman reborn (as only one of the Supermen had Kryptonian DNA).

How about just Project Cadmus' attempt to recreate Superman or Cadmus' attempt to reverse engineer Superman

I agree the important bits were Superman and to a lesser extent Project Cadmus.

[Theozilla]

I don't even remember it. "Black Ring"? Is that some Green Lantern related thing?

No, it was Paul Cornell's run on Action Comics, it essentially Luthor touring the DCU in search of
absolute power.

[Theozilla]

But A: he wasn't a clone of Superman and B: Westfield wasn't a "random human scientist". He wasn't a scientist period (that was one of Johns' goofs).

From 1993 to 2003, the description was "clone based on Superman" (not "of"). "The closest genetic equivalent of Superman science could create". "Human clone created in Superman's image". "Clone made to be the next Superman". And so on. The mere fact that "Superman" is there is the point of it. That the character is based on Superman.

Superboy was introduced as a "clone of Superman" because each of the four Supermen were being touted as "Superman reborn". But it was revealed early that he wasn't Superman reborn just like all the others (only one of the Supermen had Kryptonian DNA). His genes/look/powers were based on Superman and his DNA was radically changed to be genetically similar, but he was not Superman's clone (even the book said "the most common misconception is that Superboy's a clone of Superman").

I am sorry my wording was wrong, but the former description I gave, I was essentially trying to say the same thing you just said.

But you still kinda missed my point, Superboy's first origin was likely to get less of a "familiarity reaction" out of a casual fan (and as you pointed out often was misrepresented) than Johns' retcon. Johns made the origin much more "familiar" to a non-fan or casual fan. Any newcomer will likely be much more interested in a character who's base description is "half-Superman, half-Luthor" than "human clone designed to replicate Superman's physiology". It is likely why Johns' retcon is being used in the Young Justice TV show.

[SJNeal]

Johns' Connor Kent.

Kesel's is a close second, but it took me a loooong time to appreciate him. I despised the character throughout "Reign of the Supermen" and didn't really take a liking to him until well into his solo series (don't ask me why I was buying a book starring a character I found annoying).

[Free-Man]

Hard vote. I was never a fan of how angsty Superboy was under Johns but I do like Westfield being swapped out and discarded in favor of just making Conner a clone of Lex and Superman. Streamlining it like that was a good move IMO.

[Ice Wolf]

I am sorry my wording was wrong, but the former description I gave, I was essentially trying to say the same thing you just said.

But you still kinda missed my point, Superboy's first origin was likely to get less of a "familiarity reaction" out of a casual fan (and as you pointed out often was misrepresented) than Johns' retcon. Johns made the origin much more "familiar" to a non-fan or casual fan. Any newcomer will likely be much more interested in a character who's base description is "half-Superman, half-Luthor" than "human clone designed to replicate Superman's physiology". It is likely why Johns' retcon is being used in the Young Justice TV show.

More likely it is because Geoff Johns is the Chief Creative Officer of DC Comics

[C-Dot]

How about just Project Cadmus' attempt to recreate Superman or Cadmus' attempt to reverse engineer Superman

I agree the important bits were Superman and to a lesser extent Project Cadmus.

I was leaning towards Cadmus in the "science" quote from Superboy/Robin WFIII, but your descriptions are valid. Cadmus definitely have importance as they were Superboy's creators.

When I said that "The mere fact that Superman is there is the point of it", I meant that Superman being in the description was enough for someone to know that the character was connected to Superman without having to be a literal Superman clone. If I explained "well, Project Cadmus recreated Superman using human DNA and created Superboy", it's not some hard to understand thing. It wasn't for years+ and there were a sizable chunk of new and old comic readers who got into the kid and the adventures and so on.

[Theozilla]

More likely it is because Geoff Johns is the Chief Creative Officer of DC Comics

Not really, Greg Weisman himself said the only real influence Johns had on the show was the father of Aqualad. Most of the shows production was well underway before Johns became CCO. Johns origin is just easier for a writer/producer to introduce in a shared universe. Less characters are required to be introduced and makes Superboy have a direct connection to Superman's #1 villain. Same with Supergirl in the DCAU, her costume at first was based on the Linda Danvers version, but her origins were still the most simple and streamlined version, she was Kara-Zor-El, Superman's cousin.

[C-Dot]

I am sorry my wording was wrong, but the former description I gave, I was essentially trying to say the same thing you just said.

But you still kinda missed my point, Superboy's first origin was likely to get less of a "familiarity reaction" out of a casual fan (and as you pointed out often was misrepresented) than Johns' retcon. Johns made the origin much more "familiar" to a non-fan or casual fan. Any newcomer will likely be much more interested in a character who's base description is "half-Superman, half-Luthor" than "human clone designed to replicate Superman's physiology". It is likely why Johns' retcon is being used in the Young Justice TV show.

Johns retcon is used because Johns version was the one around.

I didn't miss the point. You stated a description to describe Superboy in regards to people who are casual readers. I gave you the descriptions that DC Comics used for the character and what he was supposed to be. The descriptions were never complex and hard to understand when the character was accepted by readers (longtime and casual) in a big way before Titans did away with it all. He was even featured in books based on media that he didn't even show up in and that origin was used (Adventures in the DC Universe based on the DCAU). You say that a newcomer would be more interested in ""half-Superman, half-Luthor", but that's not exactly true as there are fans whose exposure to the character was Titans, but discovered who the character was by reading past issues and prefer that over what Johns did. And there are fans who never read a Superboy book and digged the Kesel original. It's different strokes for different folks when it comes to tastes, but you can't make a statement like that when you don't know for sure if that is the thought process of a newcomer. Besides, someone can definitely argue that a clone of one person made to be exactly like another can be considered accessible.

This was not done to make things simple though. Johns always wanted Luthor in the origin ever since the first series. He wrote to the Superboy letters page stating that Luthor was a DNA donor and they said that he was wrong (issue #31 or #32). Luthor was actively stopping any cloning Cadmus was doing and considered Superboy an imposter so it didn't make sense. His pitch to DC had Superboy as "an amalgam of Paul Westfield and Superman" with Luthor again as a donor and Westfield and his daughter as scientists (which they were not). That was rejected and someone named Dan Didio became the writer. The first thing Johns did was change the origin and got a lot of things wrong about the character, origins, powers, personality, supporting characters, and even the premise (they weren't trying to make a Superboy when the point was to grow a Superman).