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  1. #16
    They LAUGHED at my theory SteveGus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by WhitOro View Post
    Again, I think you're overeading this. I know that amazons got it rough, but this is a very Azzarello-story, I don't see editorial pushing hard on him more than in any other of the titles. Plus, they have their amazons-free Diana in Earth-2.
    That too fits the hypothesis.

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    And, once again, whether this turns out to be a happy and uplifting story eight or nine issues out from this one doesn't change the fact that the DCU has just been rebooted. People are looking for answers as to who this version of Wonder Woman is, who are her allies, what are her motives, and what are her abilities in a rebooted universe. This is not a good time to launch a long story arc full of misdirection and vague hints that will take fourteen issues or so to complete. Even if it's a good story, one that ought to eventually be told, starting with such a tale right out of the starting gate raises questions of basic editorial competence.

    Again, compare Perez's first two issues to Azzarello's first eight. There were some large changes being made by Perez to Wonder Woman's cast, mythos, and motivation. By the time Perez hit issue 2, we had a good feel for what changes had in fact been made, and whether we wished to continue reading this version of the character or not. Perez did it right. Azzarello's doing it wrong.

    You're basically asking me to trust him. I don't.
    Superhero comic books only become art to the extent that their banal, unrealistic fantasy and garish styles go too far and become interesting. Attempts to ground them in reality can only ruin them.

  2. #17
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    Seriously though guys, have the French even won a single war by themselves in the 20th century? They almost lost to Germany in WWI, they did in WWII, they lost Vietnam, and failed utterly to quell the uprising in Algeria, which sent their republic into reformation. It is said that France is that last colonial power still acting like a colonial empire and I am sure it is because they are so embarrassed.

  3. #18
    Senior Member WhitOro's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SteveGus View Post
    And, once again, whether this turns out to be a happy and uplifting story eight or nine issues out from this one doesn't change the fact that the DCU has just been rebooted. People are looking for answers as to who this version of Wonder Woman is, who are her allies, what are her motives, and what are her abilities in a rebooted universe. This is not a good time to launch a long story arc full of misdirection and vague hints that will take fourteen issues or so to complete. Even if it's a good story, one that ought to eventually be told, starting with such a tale right out of the starting gate raises questions of basic editorial competence.
    I can't disagree more. Mysteries and dramas filled with questions are what people like. Launching a book with thta kind of thing is what makes people interested.
    Beside, we know who her allies are, we know from where she comes from, through her actions we see who she's. We are not launched in medias res, we got the set-up and we got her world enstablished fairly well.

    Again, compare Perez's first two issues to Azzarello's first eight. There were some large changes being made by Perez to Wonder Woman's cast, mythos, and motivation. By the time Perez hit issue 2, we had a good feel for what changes had in fact been made, and whether we wished to continue reading this version of the character or not. Perez did it right. Azzarello's doing it wrong.
    Arguable. Perez first issues in the Superman book did just what you just said, with the same style he used for his WW, but while Azzarello got hailed by every critic in the planet, most found Perez's titles verbous, filled with way too much dialogue and worst of all, dull. Perez wrote his first WW in 1987. The way comicbooks are made (the way fiction in general is made) as changed. You can't say Perez has done it right and Azza done it wrong, because it's a matter of time and place.

    What you're arguing is that Azzarello didn't introduced your Diana. If we have arrived up to issue 8, still wondering if Diana can still fly, it's because she flew before the reboot, so we know that past and we want it to see. But in this story, it's not importante if she can fly or not.
    You see? It's important to us that want to see this ability, but it's not really important to a potential new reader.

    You're basically asking me to trust him. I don't.
    Not exactly. I'm not saying you should trust him, I'm saying you shouldn't be so convinced that Diana future holds nothing more but impeding disastrous colossal doom.

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    You're or is this a joke?

  4. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by WhitOro View Post
    I should be working on a thesis about Francis I of France use of the cavalry during the Battle of Pavia for my history’s exam.
    But this is more important! (Also far more interesting).
    I start from various posts of our fellow companion, SteveGus, in which he predicts the complete annihilation of Diana’s character and her transformation from the hero loved by many into Lady Death:

    It seems this idea has quite some supporters, and believe that Azzarello is just trying to make WW world grimmier and darker to attract that filthy Vertigo's crowd that wants nothing but violence and sex. I say, for the hundred times, you’re being paranoid and pessimistic in a totally exaggerated way.
    "But then, what's Azzarello endgame?"
    What he's trying to do with Diana? (aside from telling a great story?) He's destroying her for some sadistic pleasure? And if not, what's gonna happen in the end?
    Well, Azzarello already did all these things, this WW storyarc presents the same approach than another one of his biggest contribution to the DC superhero genre.
    Have you ever read Superman: For Tomorrow?

    Brief history lesson: after the success of Batman Hush, DC realized that “Hey, Jim Lee artworks + Big character = Lots and lots of money” so they slapped him on Superman for another year-long storyarc, and they called Azzarello to write this marathon.
    The result was a story that once you read it in a trade it’s a masterpiece, but month by month I can see it being considerate an endless nightmare much like many view this WW run right here, (thought I feel different about it this time).

    In FT, it looked like Azzarello was taking great pleasure in deconstruct everything about Superman mythos. Spoiler for those who didn’t read For Tomorrow (go and do it now)

    1*While Superman was off-planet saving Green Lantern, something happen on Earth: thousands of people disappeared into thin air. Where? How? Why? Nobody knows. Lois Lane is with them. Superman lost his wife, she’s gone. Much like Diana's mother and sisters are away.
    Also, you never see the rest of Superman's cast during for tomorrow, just like you don't see Steve Trevor in this one.

    2*Incapable of coping alone with the tragedy, Superman ask a priest to be his confessor. He chooses a particular one, because with his X-Ray vision, he noted that the guy has an inoperable tumor that will end up killing him, so he will definitely never tell anybody about their conversations. DAMN. Superdickery at work.

    3*Superman tries and FAILS to stop a war. Hundreds die. Then he tries and FAILS to stop an execution. Dozens die.

    4*Planet Earth itself, represented by Elemental Titans (rock is Mount Rushmore hell yeah) decide that Superman gotta go, so they try to smack him out of the planet. And how does he resolve this situation? With a summary, he says “Back off Earth or I’ll destroy you. You know I can do it.” and the Planet retreats. It’s an awesome scene, yet at the same time, incredibly dark and scary. You do know Superman is capable of doing all of this, and when later the priest asks him “Would you really have done it?” there’s no real answer, just silence.

    5*Superman wants to find the Lois and the other victims of the dissapearings. He attempts what all the other superheroes see as a suicide. He doesn’t think so, but at this point of the story, Superman seems completely insane so trusting his judgment isn’t something the reader is enticed to do. Diana tries to stop him (Wonder Woman is beautifully written in this, even thought Jim Lee goes way too much for the ass shots). Look at this scene:

    It sounds and looks like a battle between a hero and a supervillain. Superman has gloving red eyes, a snarl on his face, and his words are strong and threatening.

    6*The Fortress of Solitude, Superman’s home base since the 1950, is destroyed. Ka-boom, self destruct mechanism, nothing left. Much like Paradise Island has been removed from the story.

    7*Superman later realized that the disappearance of all those people at the beginning of the story was entirely his fault, because he created the machine to do it, acting like a jerk-ass with god syndrome, creating entire universes just “for fun” (I’m simplifying it). It was practically a giant escape-pod in case things on Earth got too difficult for him and humanity. Together with the fake-suicide, this is another instance of Clark running away from his troubles.

    So, in the end, for 12 issues, Azzarello had done nothing but pile-up s**t on Superman and disassembling every single aspect of him, turning him into a malevolent God, both a bully and a coward. Obviously he wants to make him a villain, right?
    How does this story end?

    Azzarello practically breaks the fourth wall and give the reader a pat to the shoulder. Superman comes to terms with himself, the world is brought back to order, Lois Lane comes back, she’s saved and so are the lives of thousands, a big bad villain is defeated, and Clark himself rebuilds his Fortress, but this time, he places it inside of a jungle, where life is at his peak, not in the middle of Antarctica an Iceland where nothing grows and nothing lives. It’s symbolic. Superman comes out of it stronger than before, his mission clearer than ever.
    At the end he does ask “Who will save me?” knowing that even with his powers he can make big mistakes, but at the same time he realizes that he has a purpose in life, and that’s “do good and save the world”, the character perfect summary.

    What does this have to do with Wonder Woman?
    I see Azzarello doing the exact same character work that he did on For Tomorrow.
    Right now we’re on issue 8. For Tomorrow Part 8 was the point of the story where Superman was about to commit “suicide”, he was savagely battling against Diana herself to do it, and he had already beat the Planet into submission.
    He isn’t trying to destroy Diana because he hates her and wants to turn her into a super anti-villain Punisher style, he’s taking the same approach that he took with Superman, creating a level of dread and suffering that makes the hero final resolution much more powerful and solid.

    If in the end Brian Azzarello does turn Wonder Woman into an hellspawn like many are so sure of, fine, I’ll apologize, but right now we don’t have any proof to actually say that he’s trying to make her an anti-hero a loveless shell, beside “Azzarello is a jerk and he hates everything about Diana and he’s a misogynist pretentious Vertigo lapdog”.
    Oh, and that’s not a proof at all.


  5. #20
    Senior Member WhitOro's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Maximum Impact View Post
    "Maturity? What's that?"

  6. #21

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    WhitOro - another interesting, intelligent and enjoyable post (now go do your homework ).

    I like 'For Tomorrow,' but I don't think it's the best comparison to Azzarello's WW.

    a) No supporting characters are buried in "dirt." Lois didn't kill all her ex-lovers to make sure she didn't compromise Superman's secret. Ma didn't lock foster childen in the cellar to earn a few extra bucks to pay off the morgage.

    b) 'For Tomorrow' drags. Reads much better in trades, but monthly - well, I kept forgetting it was still going on (and on and on and...). So, reminding me of the drag, does not help me see the light.

    c) 'For Tomorrow' doesn't actually make a lot of sense. Superman invents a vanisher to send a bunch of Earth folks to a mini-paradise (thought Azzarello hated Paradise?) he built in the Phantom Zone, but when a bunch of people vanish, Superman mopes about for a year not knowing what happened? It was his plan; his design. "Oh where or where could they be?"

    eta:
    I did notice that WW in 'For Tomorrow" has a 'judicious' use of flight. ;)
    "... Act, that each tomorrow find us farther than today."
    - Longfellow

  7. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by WhitOro View Post
    "Maturity? What's that?"
    "Jokes? What's that?"

  8. #23
    Veteran Member Dr. Hurt's Avatar
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    So what do you think will be the endgame of this story? I mean at some point Zola will be out of danger. So where do you think that leaves WW?

    I personally dont see her settling down and getting a job. I'd love to see Zola stick around. They need to find a way to make that possible. And of course the gods will always be around in some capacity. They're family now.

    At some point I'd like a story with Steve Trevor. The origin would be nice.

  9. #24
    Veteran Member direction9's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by americanwonder View Post
    WhitOro - another interesting, intelligent and enjoyable post (now go do your homework ).

    I like 'For Tomorrow,' but I don't think it's the best comparison to Azzarello's WW.

    a) No supporting characters are buried in "dirt." Lois didn't kill all her ex-lovers to make sure she didn't compromise Superman's secret. Ma didn't lock foster childen in the cellar to earn a few extra bucks to pay off the morgage.
    nothing like this has happened in ww yet either.

    Quote Originally Posted by americanwonder View Post
    c) 'For Tomorrow' doesn't actually make a lot of sense. Superman invents a vanisher to send a bunch of Earth folks to a mini-paradise (thought Azzarello hated Paradise?) he built in the Phantom Zone, but when a bunch of people vanish, Superman mopes about for a year not knowing what happened? It was his plan; his design. "Oh where or where could they be?"
    did you not read the explanation for this in the thread?

  10. #25
    The Mad Artist RMAN63's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dr. Hurt View Post
    So what do you think will be the endgame of this story? I mean at some point Zola will be out of danger. So where do you think that leaves WW?

    I personally dont see her settling down and getting a job. I'd love to see Zola stick around. They need to find a way to make that possible. And of course the gods will always be around in some capacity. They're family now.

    At some point I'd like a story with Steve Trevor. The origin would be nice.
    After having been revealed that the story is only halfway through, and that not all the Gods who will play a part in this have been introduced, I'd say it is safe to say we don't even have anywhere near the information required to guess at the Endgame. As far as the Steve Trevor subject goes, I'd expect that in #0 (instead of issue 13) that I was mentioning before.

    PS: I don't know why, but I have a feeling Aphrodite is going to be a big character once she gets around. Maybe that will ebb the tide a little more in Wonder Woman's favor... although at this point, I realize that's actually wishful thinking maybe.

  11. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dr. Hurt View Post
    So what do you think will be the endgame of this story? I mean at some point Zola will be out of danger. So where do you think that leaves WW?

    I personally dont see her settling down and getting a job. I'd love to see Zola stick around. They need to find a way to make that possible. And of course the gods will always be around in some capacity. They're family now.

    At some point I'd like a story with Steve Trevor. The origin would be nice.

    Of the Nu52 characters I totally get Starling's popularity, she's a cool, kick-ass chick. I also get Strife as a bootleg Circe with all of her bitchiness and none of her power. Zola I don't understand, she's done nothing so far but be a typical damsel in distress with a useless shotty.

  12. #27
    Roll up the PARTITION plz Imraith Nimphais's Avatar
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    Wot!!? More mindless and pointless speculation...

    Can we not be happy that WW's story is so delightfully unpredictable...for once. Even with all the hints and wot-nots throughout each issue it is still very difficult to project where he is taking these characters. Thank the Goddess!
    Sun and Moon
    Ororo Munroe...God's own X-MAN
    Storm deserves her very own solo ongoing...unfortunately..."Limited minds place limits on everything but their own foolishness." (aja_c.)

  13. #28
    Veteran Member Dr. Hurt's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Maximum Impact View Post
    Of the Nu52 characters I totally get Starling's popularity, she's a cool, kick-ass chick. I also get Strife as a bootleg Circe with all of her bitchiness and none of her power. Zola I don't understand, she's done nothing so far but be a typical damsel in distress with a useless shotty.
    Well yeah, she's the dumsel in distress but she's fun, she doesnt take crap from anybody and she's a WW fangirl. So what's not to like?

  14. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dr. Hurt View Post
    Well yeah, she's the dumsel in distress but she's fun, she doesnt take crap from anybody and she's a WW fangirl. So what's not to like?
    Her whorish redneck background for one. lol

  15. #30
    They LAUGHED at my theory SteveGus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Maximum Impact View Post
    Her whorish redneck background for one. lol
    'Slut-shaming' only helps the enemies of civilization. I certainly don't object to the character's presence.
    Superhero comic books only become art to the extent that their banal, unrealistic fantasy and garish styles go too far and become interesting. Attempts to ground them in reality can only ruin them.

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