If I was to change that to: Mason Williams believed men were better than women in just about every way -- smarter, stronger, more compassionate, more fitted to rule, I should have your agreement. Because feminism is a belief in equality of the sexes. So if feminism means the same in that statement of women in the first then the second with men must also be true.
Obviously, the originator of that statement doesn't see anything at all wrong with making that statement. Which says a lot about him and what he thinks is feminism. And if that statement is the point of Wonder Woman then why are men buying it? No other title I know of tells the biggest portion of its readership they are stupid. As they say, if its good for the goose...
Isn't it jumping to conclusions to say that the new posters are just new accounts for existing posters? Sure, I know it can and does happen. But, we don't accually know that, do we? I mean, we all had to join at somepoint, and had a first post.
My point: Just as we want to be careful not to jump to conclusions about the story, and more importantly the creative team, don't we also want to be careful not to jump to conclusions about fans/posters?
"... Act, that each tomorrow find us farther than today."
I'm liking Azzarello's run. Granted, I'm a WW newbie. The only other run I've read is JMS's, which was the current run when I started. I definitely enjoy Azzarello's more. I'm curious which one is more reviled by the long time WW fans.
I've just begun digging into older stuff by starting Simone's run with The Circle, which I thought was great. Skipping the rest of Vol. 3 since it appears to be reviled (Amazons Attack, in particular). It just seems to me that WW fans been hating for a long, long time. (Well, maybe except for Simone, but I wasn't on the forum then, so I don't know...)
Hi Onoturtle. :)
Glad you are enjoying the story. Sure, we WW fans can be a rowdy bunch at times, but I wouldn't say we've been "hating for a long time" for the simple fact that we all don't agree: some really like Azzarello, some really liked JMS, some really liked Simone, etc., etc. Plenty of room for lots of voices and opinions. In other words, different people like/hate different things.
As for JMS v. Azzarello? Hmm, not easy, particularly only part way through the current story. I think Azzarello's is the stronger story overall, but my big complaint thus far (and it's a biggie for me) is the depiction of the Amazons.
"... Act, that each tomorrow find us farther than today."
The name of the thread is Do you like Brian Azzarello's Wonder Woman?
By the very nature of the thread, it is going to invite some very positive and negative reviews. It is asking people to make a personal observation.
Please allow your fellow posters to feel comfortable expressing their views, as that is precisely what the person who started the thread was asking for.
People need to have more faith.
When I voted on the pole it gave me the option of liking it on Facebook, which I did. Then I thoughy, well, there are a lot of folks on FB who care about WW, so I linked the poll to groups I am a member of. I think quite a few folks then hopped in and voted, but just to judge from the comments on the FB I dont think they all voted "NO", nor did I expect them to. But I suspect that had at least something to do with the sudden influx of votes.
Nevertheless, I did just check and there were some groups I missed. While I suspect there would be few people who would not be in any of groups I have already posted to, I put the link in the remaing groups in the interests of accuracy and fairness.
Having said that, I certainly dont regret posting the links. The idea was to ask how people felt, right? And interestingly it seems that the percentages have stayed the same even with the extra 40 votes. You now have a greater sampling, and therefore a more reliable one.
Last edited by brettc1; 04-23-2012 at 01:53 AM.
Irene Adler: “I would have you right here on this desk until you begged for mercy twice.”
Sherlock: “I’ve never begged for mercy in my life.”
I'm loving it. I am not, however, interested in being in a McDonald's commercial, just for the record. I'm speaking of Azzarello & Chiang's Wonder Woman. I am one of the old farts that's been around in some capacity since this forum started. And I'll take any opportunity to point out that I've been a devoted Wonder Woman superfan since I was around 5 years old (when Lynda Carter spinning into an explosion of technicolor satin ignited something within me that I didn't know existed, and I still can't explain.) Oh, and Superfriends was on around the same time, so I've loved, loved, loved Wonder Woman since before I even had an idea of who I was as a person. She quickly erased any fascination I had with dinosaurs and the solar system. It was all WW all the time for me. Anything I could get my hands on. As far as the comics - I've enjoyed some runs, disliked others, and I've been fairly vocal about it on these very boards. I left for several months when it was clear that this was becoming another DC boards with vitriol and antagonism so thick it became an exercise in futility.
But speaking of the run in question: I was a bit surprised that the clay birth was gone, as were the utopian, perpetually love-imbued Amazons. But I think this was a bold move, and one that's more in-line with Greek mythology, which by and large is more horrific and harsh than Wonder Woman's previous My Little Pony land would lead one to believe. Sure, it's nice to think they're all sitting around in togas preaching love and braiding each other's hair, but It makes more sense to me that a nation of Amazons - repeat AMAZONS - would be just a little bad-ass, in some way that fits into your own personal definition of what "bad-ass" means, and they would likely face harsh realities and grim, even morally deplorable decisions in the interest of survival. However misguided they may be in some of their actions, it feels like a very likely and plausible reality in the backdrop of a somewhat modern world and one firmly based in Greek mythology. I feel like I'm being overly wordy, but I blame this on two things: Waking up at 4 AM and being unable to sleep, and then seeing Brett's post regarding this poll on facebook. So here I am - all groggy eyed and trying to make sense until the xanax kicks in and I can go back to sleep. I've thought for a long time that I love this series currently and I wish I could put it into words, but simply haven't had the time. Plus the outraged and overly dismissive fans have a way of discouraging me from even making the effort of explaining my joy.
"This isn't Wonder Woman. I don't know who she is, but she isn't Wonder Woman". I'm so bored with this dismissive critique. It attempts to invalidate the entire effort put forth by Azzarello and Chiang, but it's weak at best. As best I can figure, she isn't Wonder Woman because she is Zeus's daughter and her Amazon sisters hit the high seas to mate once in a blue moon? Those things that are not within her control prevent her from being Wondrous? She's Diana. She's strong and compassionate. She's clever and somewhat idealistic. Many of the revelations that have outraged some fans have come as a surprise to her as well. She could conceivably get all emo about it and be another JMS version of herself, but instead - she is trying to assimilate these findings in a sensible and constructive way and sets about to understand how - and if - the revelations regarding her origin and the actions of her sisters affects her own identity and role in the world at large. I've mentioned this in another thread somewhere on the internets, but if Diana can embody the compassion and hope that we tend to automatically assign to her, in spite of what has come to light, then that makes her even more Wondrous than her previous incarnations - where she was Wonder Woman without having to try.
"She's a supporting character in her own book!" This has been a frequent criticism, and an easy one to come to, with a supporting cast as large as this one. I quite vocally shouted that very critique during Byrne's run on the book - which I still assert is one of the worst blemishes on Wonder Woman's history. Sorry, I can't help myself when it comes to that particular lackluster run and I will take any cheap shot that's available. But back to the point - yes it can feel that Wonder Woman isn't the focal point, with so much going on, but it all comes back to her. The actions of the others serve to motivate Diana's mission. I don't feel like I'm reading "The Exploits of Hermes!" or "Greek Gods pissing each other off". I mean these things are parts of the story, but Diana is still front and center and the story is very much about her and her journey.
I was not pleased to learn that Chiang was the artist at first. I thought his art, what little I had seen of it, looked too - I hate to use this word - amateurish, and not nearly dynamic enough for my tastes. Complete rubbish - it was evident in the first issue that the man is a genius at conveying a story through images. Each and every singular panel seems to carry with it a story all its own. I try to imagine other artist's working off this script and I wonder what they would come up with, and if they could do it as succinctly and expertly as Chiang does? I'm sure some could work their own magic, but I relish what Chiang is producing and as many critics have stated - it seems the perfect fit for Azzarello's vision. And the colorist - who's name escapes me (so sorry! you're magnificent!) deserves high praise for capturing the tone perfectly. Some of his color choices are, at times, surprising, but it always enhances the impact of the story.
I can't say enough about Azzarello's writing. I hadn't read any of his work before, but for some reason, his Superman run - which I didn't read - had me worried. No clue why, unless I read some negative buzz somewhere. But I love his writing style, the obvious thought and care that goes into crafting a story. It's not a slapdash mess that previous writers (and probably editors) are guilty of submitting. I can only guess he's putting forth some serious effort here, or maybe he's dreaming it up on the fly effortlessly. Either way, I'm very much enthralled and eager to see where he takes this.
i think there were probably other points I wanted to hit on, but the blessed xanax haze is setting in. I may get a glorious 4 more hours of sleep out of this before I have to go crack the whip at work. I'm not nurse Ratchet, but nurse Hephaestus has a nice ring to it.
Last edited by Atomcrush; 04-23-2012 at 04:12 AM.
"We are not what we did, but what we will do" --- Jann Arden
I kinda think of myself as a feminist. I take that back, I think of myself as a person who believes in the inherent equality of all human beings and that women across the world are being oppressed in various degrees. I think it's kinda funny that people are taking such a stance on the Amazons that they're somehow offensive... They are AMAZONS! They're not hippies. They're fierce warrior women and even if they're not entirely horrible they ought to be at least just a bit threatening.