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  1. #16

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gaelforce View Post
    Don't make me break out the watering can to put out the flames, guys.

    Keep this and all posts on these board to the topic at hand and not the people doing the posting.

    Thanks :)




    Quote Originally Posted by Outside_85 View Post
    Think the only other place, other than internet forums, where you have to tolerate people talking rubbish constantly is in the UN General Assembly.
    Congress?
    "... Act, that each tomorrow find us farther than today."
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  2. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by americanwonder View Post
    Congress?
    Maybe, but I haven't seen the Democrat half of the room leave when a Tea Partier stared talking the way the US delegaration leaves the room with most of the western delegations when Irans President is 15min into his yearly rant.

  3. #18

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    Quote Originally Posted by Outside_85 View Post
    Maybe, but I haven't seen the Democrat half of the room leave when a Tea Partier stared talking the way the US delegaration leaves the room with most of the western delegations when Irans President is 15min into his yearly rant.
    I'm pretty sure everyone has the Tea Party on their "ignore" list and just use the time to check their phone messages. ;)

    p.s. Irans President deserves to be ignored by all.
    "... Act, that each tomorrow find us farther than today."
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  4. #19
    CBR Mod/WW Section Mom Gaelforce's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zeeguy91 View Post
    Or if maybe Haly's Circus, the circus where Dick Grayson and his family performed before his parents' deaths, the place that served as Dick's home with people who were essentially his extended family, was revealed to be a venue for a shadowy cabinet of individuals, akin to Gotham's version of the Illuminati, to pick from a crop of young athletes one child that would be trained to be that group's assassin? And then compound that revelation with evidence that Dick himself was on the top of that group's list to be trained as the next assassin? Wouldn't that be awful...

    Oh, wait. That's actually happening. That's right. It turns out that Haly's Circus, all this time, has existed for the sole purpose of providing future "Talons" for the Court of Owls. And actually one of the major Talons is Dick's own great-great-grandfather and Dick himself was meant to become a Talon. If anything, that's worse than anything that's been done to Wonder Woman because, while the Amazons are simply trying to survive as a race, Haly's Circus has been transformed into a front for a villainous group, in essence a villainous group themselves. And you know what? I think that its a great twist and its being executed wonderfully to both advance the story and provide a challenging emotional conflict for Dick Grayson as a character. As long as the story is logical and well written, I'm game for anything.

    So, there, now we have parity.

    Also, how is DCnU Wonder Woman any stupider than pre-Flashpoint Wonder Woman???? I don't see anything to suggest that she is. In fact, I think that she's smarter. She was, after all, able to pull the wool over Hera's eyes and use Hades and Poseidon as pawns.
    I'm sorry, but I don't think the two even begin to compare (and btw, Bat fans are going nuts over the idiocy of that particular retcon)

    Again, look at the list of changes to the core concepts of WW and compare that to this one *addition* (stupid as it is) to the sidekick of Batman.

    There's no comparison, imo.

  5. #20

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    Quote Originally Posted by Zeeguy91 View Post
    Or if maybe Haly's Circus, ...

    So, there, now we have parity.
    Um, no. Dirt on the sidekick's parent's bosses is not the same as dirt on the star's mom, in my book. Was Dick raised by his great, great grandpa? Did he even know him? So what if someone else put his name on a list? Big Deal. Diana's mom is leading the sex pirates because they can't pick up drunk sailors at any random port, and then trading all the boys for weapons? Please, these two aren't remotely comparable. Get back to me when Thomas is actually Dr. Hurt.

    Quote Originally Posted by Zeeguy91 View Post
    Also, how is DCnU Wonder Woman any stupider than pre-Flashpoint Wonder Woman???? I don't see anything to suggest that she is. In fact, I think that she's smarter. She was, after all, able to pull the wool over Hera's eyes and use Hades and Poseidon as pawns.
    Perhaps because she's just following the plans (and not very good plans) of others? And even then, they don't work out very well. "Oops, was I suppose to be watching Zola or something?" "Hey Hades, want some love guns, evn though they aen't mine? What could possibly go wrong here?" Not the brightest bulb.
    "... Act, that each tomorrow find us farther than today."
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  6. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by americanwonder View Post
    Um, no. Dirt on the sidekick's parent's bosses is not the same as dirt on the star's mom, in my book. Was Dick raised by his great, great grandpa? Did he even know him? So what if someone else put his name on a list? Big Deal. Diana's mom is leading the sex pirates because they can't pick up drunk sailors at any random port, and then trading all the boys for weapons? Please, these two aren't remotely comparable. Get back to me when Thomas is actually Dr. Hurt.
    First, Dick is actually a major DC character in his own right. He's been Robin, leader of the Titans, and is arguably a more developed character than Wonder Woman herself. If you can't see that then you just don't know DC Comics. Second, when someone tells you that the people you grew up with and for all intents and purposes were an extension of your family were actually secretly planning to make you the killing machine of a secret order of Gotham's elite and that members of your family had actually been chosen to do the same thing, I'd imagine you wouldn't brush it off and say "big deal". And third, the Amazons are simply trying to survive as a race. Are their practices shady and morally ambiguous? Yes. But, they can't have those sailors go off telling every other man they see that they got laid by beautiful women. Otherwise, the Amazon's would be discovered and likely have been subjected to the "tainting" of men.

    Get back to me when you actually wrap your head around the fact that Wonder Woman isn't the only one who's experiencing an identity crisis....

    Quote Originally Posted by Gaelforce View Post
    I'm sorry, but I don't think the two even begin to compare (and btw, Bat fans are going nuts over the idiocy of that particular retcon)

    Again, look at the list of changes to the core concepts of WW and compare that to this one *addition* (stupid as it is) to the sidekick of Batman.

    There's no comparison, imo.
    No, you don't get to do that. You don't get to cherrypick what counts and what doesn't. There is a comparison because its toying with Dick's backstory just as Wonder Woman's backstory is being toyed with. In pretty much every interpretation, Haly's Circus has been portrayed as a fond memory of Dick's, a place that he considers his home. Even recently in the Young Justice episode, Performance, Dick led the team on a mission to save the circus because its so dear to him. And even in Nightwing #1, Dick goes back to the Circus and reminisces about the memories he had there.

    First off, Batman and Nightwing fans might be somewhat upset about it, but they are much much much much much less vocal (or obsessive) about their complaints than some of the few fanatical Wonder Woman fans. In fact, in my participation in the Batman forums, I haven't once seen a fan vocally complain about the change. They all seem to be taking it okay and with a little bit of grace, something that Wonder Woman fans fail to grasp.

    Second off, that "sidekick of Batman's" is actually one of the most developed characters in comics. Everything from his time as Robin to his time as leader of the Titans and his eventual donning of the Nightwing identity has allowed him to emerge out of Batman's shadow and become a major DC character in his own right. Nightwing has arguably played a larger role in the history of the DCU than even Wonder Woman herself.

    And lastly, why do you think that Wonder Woman has gone through so many different iterations?? Its because DC couldn't find anything that could make the character appealing or relevant to the majority of comic book fans. In fact, this is the first time I've seen her experience anything resembling a personal conflict. Before, she essentially was the paradigm of love and virtue come to teach and "enlighten" mankind. The main conflict she faced was from people who were resistant to her message, while she herself was without any real chinks in her armor. The one time I remember reading a Wonder Woman that I liked was in Infinite Crisis where she had to deal with the fallout from killing Maxwell Lord because it actually showed her struggle with her identity (Diana vs. Wonder Woman) and her choices. That is a conflict that Azzarello is playing up now. Superman and Batman are so appealing because there are fundamentally tragic elements built into their origins and backstories (Superman being an outcast and Batman's orphaning). This is something that Wonder Woman never had, hence all of the re-imaginings and retconns. Azzarello has finally introduced that into Wonder Woman's world.
    Last edited by Zeeguy91; 05-01-2012 at 04:01 PM.

  7. #22
    CBR Mod/WW Section Mom Gaelforce's Avatar
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    I'm not cherry picking.

    There is a difference between *adding* something to a character's history and *changing* something in a character's history.

    Haly's Circus had a secret that Dick didn't know about. It's stupid, but it doesn't *change* the facts that we've seen about Dick's history.

    And it's only one addition.

    The examples I've given off the top of my head are active changes to the existing history and grossly outnumber this one (stupid) addition to Dick's background.

  8. #23

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    Quote Originally Posted by Zeeguy91 View Post
    First, Dick is actually a major DC character in his own right...
    Dick is comics most successful coat-rider; without Batman, he's nothing. Sure, he went on to great success in TT; but his "importance" began and continues because of his connection to Batman. He didn't get there on his own.

    All of that misses the point: Maximum Impact mentioned Superman and Batman, and you reply with Dick? He's neither Batman nor Superman and as great a character as he is, he's not as major.

    Quote Originally Posted by Zeeguy91 View Post
    ... Second, when someone tells you that the people you grew up with and for all intents and purposes were an extension of your family were actually secretly planning to make you the killing machine of a secret order of Gotham's elite and that members of your family had actually been chosen to do the same thing, I'd imagine you wouldn't brush it off and say "big deal"...
    I'm not reading it, so I don't have much opinion about it. Sounds not to my liking.

    Personally, I don't care what other people planned for me (weak attempt at soap drama, imo). Were his parents in on the dirt? Did those plans have any actual impact on Dick's life? Did they make him torture kitties or something? If I find some plans from my great great granddad that had no actual affect on my life, I seriously doubt I'm going to have an identity crisis. Nothing more than, "Well, that's interesting but never happened."

    Quote Originally Posted by Zeeguy91 View Post
    ... And third, the Amazons are simply trying to survive as a race. Are their practices shady and morally ambiguous? Yes. But, they can't have those sailors go off telling every other man they see that they got laid by beautiful women. Otherwise, the Amazon's would be discovered and likely have been subjected to the "tainting" of men.
    Sailors have been having anonymous sex with strangers in thousands of ports for thousands of years. It's not hard to find one and not kill them. So the whole "survival" argument is weak.

    I know WW isn't the only one with changes. I honestly don't care. "Oh no, the bearded lady was a man with my name on list" doesn't have any impact on making the WW story any better.
    Last edited by americanwonder; 05-01-2012 at 04:35 PM.
    "... Act, that each tomorrow find us farther than today."
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  9. #24

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    Getting back to the review of #8, this is my favorite part:
    ... her plan both succeeds and fails, depending on how you look at it. It's very much like Wonder Woman to end up in hot water herself as a result of helping someone else; she has always been one of the most selfless heroes at DC. It's also another exciting cliffhanger and that's something this series of "Wonder Woman" in general is great at; that continual "what happens next?" question mark hanging over each chapter.
    And this, well, it's not my favorite:
    With each new chapter, though, I feel like we're getting a strong through-line of these ideas, that it's all there to specifically align for a greater purpose.
    I don't doubt that there is a greater purpose; but I'm not sold on it (yet?), and I'm not feeling the "through-line" as much as I would like.
    "... Act, that each tomorrow find us farther than today."
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  10. #25
    Veteran Member Fate's Faith's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gaelforce View Post
    3. Wonder Woman. Powers come from Amazon training. No, powers come from godly gifts. No, powers come from being a demigod. Born from clay to a loving mother. No, born from an adulterous affair with a Greek god. She was raised in a utopian, scientifically advanced society. No, a utopian magical society with flying horses, hydras and cyclopses. Let's make that a backwards Greek society with primitive weapons and no magical creatures. She fell in love with Steve Trevor after he crashed on the island and left to return him home. No, she left to become an ambassador and bring peace to the world. Let's not say whey she left but stick Steve Trevor back into the mix. She lives in Washington DC. No, Boston. Wait, no, Gateway City. Hang on, we'll put her in NY. Back to DC. How about London? Her love interest is Steve Trevor. No, she doesn't have one anymore. Her best friend is Etta Candy. No, Julia Kapatelis and her daughter Vanessa. Nah, let's just copy them in another city and make them Helena and Cassie Sandsmark. Heck with them, we miss Etta Candy. She wears a star spangled skirt and a bodice with an eagle. No shorts. Make it a thong. Change the eagle to a WW. Give her pants. Take away the stars and make them black pants. Change the gold logo to silver. How about Ares is her main nemesis. No, Cheetah. Let's go back to Ares. Nah, we'll make is Circe. Now it's Hera.

    Get the idea? The core basics of WW have been screwed with so many times by so many writers that her 'environment' is the most unstable of any hero in the DCU. What a lot of longterm fans think she needs is stability. Up until Azzarello about the only thing that really survived from her original origin was that Hippolyta made her from clay and she was raised in a loving, utopian society.

    But now even that is gone.

    So for those of us who have been fans for decades, her power level, origin, costume, reason for being a hero, supporting cast, home city and arch nemesis have all changed. This isn't the character we grew up admiring anymore. She's barely recognizable to a lot of us, and so yeah, we get upset when yet another writer comes on and makes even *more* changes to the core basics of a character whose whole existence seems to be fluid.
    This is what confuses me. You say it yourself, this isn't the character you grew up admiring but you just stated that she's rarely been the 'same' character if you even consider her a different character now. I grew up with the Wonder Woman just after her depowering. Wonder Woman fighting with the Justice League, princess who won the right to bring Trevor home, came from an island of women possessing advanced technology, etc. That was Wonder Woman to me but then so was Perez's even if I didn't agree with some of his choices. If there's one thing true its that Wonder Woman has never been just one version but has changed as time progressed. I fail to see how one version can no longer be recognizable since you've listed her backstory has been rather fluid for some time. Not liking the current writer version is okay but to not like because he made changes? That's like not liking the current version because she's not a yeoman in the Navy to me.

    And really to me, if you can't recognize Wonder Woman after going through all of that, I have to wonder if you ever knew her because the only things that's really changed about the character is the paint of her house. She still possesses the same character traits we've always associated with her. And one more thing, her original origin is still true. Hippolyta made her from clay only that was a lie covering an affair and so far we don't know if she wasn't raised in a loving, utopian society since the only thing we know is they weren't an utopian society to those outside it. But no one's saying you have to keep an open mind, its always each readers' choice.

  11. #26

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    Quote Originally Posted by Fate's Faith View Post
    ... I fail to see how one version can no longer be recognizable since you've listed her backstory has been rather fluid for some time. Not liking the current writer version is okay but to not like because he made changes?
    I think you make a good point about WW's backstory being fluid for some time, but, as has been said, I also think that's part of the problem. As a long-term reader, I've had to deal with "All-New Directions" a tad too much for my tastes (esp, too many in too short a time). One spin by itself won't make me dizzy, but if I've been spun around and around for awhile, one more isn't always easy to take.

    Quote Originally Posted by Fate's Faith View Post
    ... She still possesses the same character traits we've always associated with her...
    The paint does change a lot, especially around her, but I do think this Diana herself does feel very much like Diana to me.

    Quote Originally Posted by Fate's Faith View Post
    ... And one more thing, her original origin is still true. Hippolyta made her from clay only that was a lie covering an affair ...
    How can the original be true if it was a lie? It was just a story to Diana; it wasn't true.
    "... Act, that each tomorrow find us farther than today."
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  12. #27
    Veteran Member Fate's Faith's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by americanwonder View Post
    How can the original be true if it was a lie? It was just a story to Diana; it wasn't true.
    If that story had any effect on Diana growing up, that doesn't change the effect its had is what I'm saying. She only now learned the truth. I thought it a clever way of changing the origin but allowing the original to still exist. To the readers it might mean something but in terms of the story and the character, its like discovering you were adopted when you're in your 30s. It doesn't change your history because that has always been the truth but you grew up believing in a different truth. So, the clay origin hasn't been changed. There's just more to it than was first believed.

  13. #28
    They LAUGHED at my theory SteveGus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gaelforce View Post
    Haly's Circus had a secret that Dick didn't know about. It's stupid, but it doesn't *change* the facts that we've seen about Dick's history.

    And it's only one addition.

    The examples I've given off the top of my head are active changes to the existing history and grossly outnumber this one (stupid) addition to Dick's background.
    I've never been a heavy reader of the Bat-books. But the whole "Court of Owls" business strikes me as incompatible with the premise of the character. Batman's supposed to be the World's Greatest Detective. A vast and wealthy conspiracy that's managed to elude him until very recently strikes me as a problem.
    Superhero comic books only become art to the extent that their banal, unrealistic fantasy and garish styles go too far and become interesting. Attempts to ground them in reality can only ruin them.

  14. #29

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    Quote Originally Posted by SteveGus View Post
    I've never been a heavy reader of the Bat-books. But the whole "Court of Owls" business strikes me as incompatible with the premise of the character. Batman's supposed to be the World's Greatest Detective. A vast and wealthy conspiracy that's managed to elude him until very recently strikes me as a problem.
    That's what makes them threatening.

  15. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gaelforce View Post
    I'm sorry, but I don't think the two even begin to compare (and btw, Bat fans are going nuts over the idiocy of that particular retcon)

    Again, look at the list of changes to the core concepts of WW and compare that to this one *addition* (stupid as it is) to the sidekick of Batman.

    There's no comparison, imo.
    There's actually plenty to compare:

    1. Both characters in the present have changed very little in comparison to who they were before Flashpoint, save the age clock having been re-winded some.
    2. Changes have occurred in the world around both characters and safe havens are suddenly not as they once were.
    3. Despite the changes to the havens, the characters themselves have not been altered by it on the counts that we were there when they found out about it.

    Whats really different is that Batman/Nightwing fans are apparently more open-minded and tolerant about such revelations, while some segments of WW-fandom are extremely intolerant to any changes at all.

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