REVIEW: "Wonder Woman" #8

[Zeeguy91]

I've never been a heavy reader of the Bat-books. But the whole "Court of Owls" business strikes me as incompatible with the premise of the character. Batman's supposed to be the World's Greatest Detective. A vast and wealthy conspiracy that's managed to elude him until very recently strikes me as a problem.

If you've been reading Batman, then you'd know that the Court of Owls was able to elude his detection for so long because they were always considered a fairy tale. And Batman once blamed them for the deaths of his parents, but then after conducting his own childhood "investigation" he concluded that they were just that, a myth. He operated under that assumption until the current arc.

[Zeeguy91]

you reply with Dick? He's neither Batman nor Superman and as great a character as he is, he's not as major.

Uh, yeah, I did. Dick Grayson is not Wonder Girl or Superboy, characters who literally couldn't exist without their adult counterparts. He doesn't need his former mentor to exist as a character. And in fact, he operates in a space both inside and outside the influence of Batman. Whose to say that Dick wouldn't have gone after Zuko even if Bruce hadn't taken him under his wing? Dick has his own origin and if events had been different, he could have become a vigilante without Batman's influence.

I'm not reading it, so I don't have much opinion about it. Sounds not to my liking.

Personally, I don't care what other people planned for me (weak attempt at soap drama, imo). Were his parents in on the dirt? Did those plans have any actual impact on Dick's life? Did they make him torture kitties or something? If I find some plans from my great great granddad that had no actual affect on my life, I seriously doubt I'm going to have an identity crisis. Nothing more than, "Well, that's interesting but never happened."

Yeah you're not reading it, because if you were it'd be pretty obvious that the impact on Dick is massive. Not only did he have to go back to Haly's and fight a villain that he in essence created by leaving the circus to live with Bruce (the Court of Owls chose another to train after he left), but in the most recent issue he comes face to face with the Talon that I was talking about, his great-great-grandfather and he's going to have to fight him.

[americanwonder]

If that story had any effect on Diana growing up, that doesn't change the effect its had is what I'm saying...

I see what you're saying here, and I can agree with this. Diana's actual experiences in her childhood/youth don't suddly change.

... So, the clay origin hasn't been changed. There's just more to it than was first believed.

I can't agree with this. The clay origin went from being true to being a lie. From real to deception. So, it has changed. It's not just "more than," it's what was was never true. Diana's childhood experiences won't suddenly change with this revelation, but it is a big change to the origin, the motivation and behavior of those around her, and how she sees it going forward.

... I thought it a clever way of changing the origin but allowing the original to still exist...

I find it a little too trite and needlessly complicated (so far?); a little too cliche soap opera. By complicated (which isn't necessarily a bad thing), I mean, it makes telling a definitive origin in a movie harder in a way. If the audience doesn't already know the clay origin (which few do), the "shocking" reveal loses much of it's punch.

[Zeeguy91]

This is what confuses me. You say it yourself, this isn't the character you grew up admiring but you just stated that she's rarely been the 'same' character if you even consider her a different character now. I grew up with the Wonder Woman just after her depowering. Wonder Woman fighting with the Justice League, princess who won the right to bring Trevor home, came from an island of women possessing advanced technology, etc. That was Wonder Woman to me but then so was Perez's even if I didn't agree with some of his choices. If there's one thing true its that Wonder Woman has never been just one version but has changed as time progressed. I fail to see how one version can no longer be recognizable since you've listed her backstory has been rather fluid for some time. Not liking the current writer version is okay but to not like because he made changes? That's like not liking the current version because she's not a yeoman in the Navy to me.

And really to me, if you can't recognize Wonder Woman after going through all of that, I have to wonder if you ever knew her because the only things that's really changed about the character is the paint of her house. She still possesses the same character traits we've always associated with her. And one more thing, her original origin is still true. Hippolyta made her from clay only that was a lie covering an affair and so far we don't know if she wasn't raised in a loving, utopian society since the only thing we know is they weren't an utopian society to those outside it. But no one's saying you have to keep an open mind, its always each readers' choice.

Fate's Faith, you just became my favorite person on the WW forums. THANK YOU!

[americanwonder]

Uh, yeah, I did. Dick Grayson is not Wonder Girl or Superboy, characters who literally couldn't exist without their adult counterparts. He doesn't need his former mentor to exist as a character. And in fact, he operates in a space both inside and outside the influence of Batman. Whose to say that Dick wouldn't have gone after Zuko even if Bruce hadn't taken him under his wing? Dick has his own origin and if events had been different, he could have become a vigilante without Batman's influence.

I'm not taking about "coulda been" stoires in the comic. I'm saying that without being carried by Batman, lots fewer readers would have cared about Dick/Robin over the years. Don't get me wrong, Robin is HUGE. And a big, big influence in comics history, both in Batman and TT. But, he didn't make it solo.

Yeah you're not reading it, because if you were it'd be pretty obvious that the impact on Dick is massive. Not only did he have to go back to Haly's and fight a villain that he in essence created by leaving the circus to live with Bruce (the Court of Owls chose another to train after he left), but in the most recent issue he comes face to face with the Talon that I was talking about, his great-great-grandfather and he's going to have to fight him.

Sounds weak. Dick didn't wrong the guy; the Owl Family did, right? Dick didn't even know about it, much less directly wrong him in any way. Did Dick ever know this old grandpa of his? I'd have no problem punching a relative I never knew and deserved a good punching.

[americanwonder]

... Whats really different is that Batman/Nightwing fans are apparently more open-minded and tolerant about such revelations, while some segments of WW-fandom are extremely intolerant to any changes at all.

Are you a big fan of changes you feel make the story less enjoyable for you? I'm not. I'm not intolerant to any change, I'm just not a fan of change for the worse.

For the Dick changes (and how wonderfully accepting Bat-fans are, unless you change one of the Batgirls ), were any existing and popular characters changed in this story? Or is it mainly adding in new characters that otherwise were no names in the background? I mean, any Nightwing fans really have a favorite circus member?

As a more casual Bat-fan, it's totally easy for me to accept changes to the circus because I'm not a fan of anyone there outside of the Graysons. They mean nothing to me; I can't even mention a single character at the circus. On the other hand, I ask because I like Hippolyta. I like many of the indivual Amazons. Thus far, the Azzarello-Amazons are very one dimentional, with less purpose than they had before.

I'm not anti-change; I'm pro-change for the better. Not all the changes in WW are for the better, imo.

[Dr. Hurt]

I am not gonna get in this comparison between Snyder's changes and Azzarello's mostly because i dont care for Snyder's crappy story and i dont think his crappy alterations to Dick's ancestors even matter. Not even Dick gave a damn. It was Bruce who was freaked out.

But there's one thing everyone's missing here. Whoever Dick Grayson is, no matter how important he might be in the DCU, he still outsold WW both as Nightwing and Batman. And he's had 1000 costume and setting changes throughout his history. WW hasnt. And that's why she needs a bigger redo to get back on the saddle. Other characters didnt, because all the other characters werent weighed down by an obsessive fanbase that rejects any change, nor feminazis, so they kept evolving and keeping up with the times.

[Outside_85]

Are you a big fan of changes you feel make the story less enjoyable for you? I'm not. I'm not intolerant to any change, I'm just not a fan of change for the worse.

I didn't actually have you in mind when I wrote that, I wont say who they are (coz they should know) and mods have a habit on coming down on you if you name others.

For the Dick changes (and how wonderfully accepting Bat-fans are, unless you change one of the Batgirls ), were any existing and popular characters changed in this story? Or is it mainly adding in new characters that otherwise were no names in the background? I mean, any Nightwing fans really have a favorite circus member?

Has Diana or Hippolyta changed in this book other than what could be expected of the silly de-ageing DC wanted?

(Btw, I didnt see the Bat-boards explode during Batman R.I.P. or Return of Bruce Wayne where it was really up in the air if Dr. Hurt was really Thomas Wayne or not.)

As a more casual Bat-fan, it's totally easy for me to accept changes to the circus because I'm not a fan of anyone there outside of the Graysons. They mean nothing to me; I can't even mention a single character at the circus. On the other hand, I ask because I like Hippolyta. I like many of the indivual Amazons. Thus far, the Azzarello-Amazons are very one dimentional, with less purpose than they had before.

I would point out that the Amazons really have had very little page time to develop in any direction.
We've seen they are not overly tolerant of visitors...but really, that's nothing new.
We've seen Aleka and her friends diss Diana because she's a demigoddess and spends far too much time away from them.
We've seen their total devotion to Hippolyta, to a point where they would get in the way of an angry Goddess in order to protect her.
And finally, we have heard from Eros and Hephaestus how the Amazons replenish their numbers.

And...thats all we've really seen and heard of them.

I'm not anti-change; I'm pro-change for the better. Not all the changes in WW are for the better, imo.

Well, since everything about WW's roots were pretty much perfection, you cant make any change without making it worse.

Actually that question will make me ask, what changes could you make to Diana, her origins or the world around her to make it better?

[Gaelforce]

Has Diana or Hippolyta changed in this book other than what could be expected of the silly de-ageing DC wanted?

Well..yeah.

Hippolyta went from being a dark haired queen of an enlightened society who created Diana from clay that the gods breathed life into to a blonde haired leader of a barbarian tribe of man haters who lied to her daughter about her birth, had an adulterous affair with a god and who either (provided Hephaestus isn't lying) participates in or oversees the raiding and murdering of innocent men in order to continue the population.

So...well...yeah, there have been some seriously substantial changes in Hippolyta.

[Dr. Hurt]

Wasnt Hippolyta blonde in the golden age? And who cares about her hair colour? Seriously, this is getting out of hand.

[Gaelforce]

Sorry...it was a minor change, which is why it was only mentioned in a list of changes.

The question was 'what changed other than de-aging.' I never said it was significant ;)

The rest of the changes mentioned, however, are not trivial. The nature of Hippolyta's 'motherhood,' the level of tech and/or magic she wields/oversees, and the level of enlightenment are all drastically altered. Even if we ignore the 'sleep with then murder men' story that Hephaestus told, there have been dramatic changes in Hippolyta and the Amazons that go far above and beyond 'de-aging'.

[SteveGus]

Wasnt Hippolyta blonde in the golden age? And who cares about her hair colour? Seriously, this is getting out of hand.

Hippolyta was indeed blonde in the Golden and Silver Ages, and until the Perez reboot. Not sure if that was her natural color, though, and even the best artists never drew a scene where that could be confirmed or denied.

[Outside_85]

Well..yeah.

Hippolyta went from being a dark haired queen of an enlightened society who created Diana from clay that the gods breathed life into to a blonde haired leader of a barbarian tribe of man haters who lied to her daughter about her birth, had an adulterous affair with a god and who either (provided Hephaestus isn't lying) participates in or oversees the raiding and murdering of innocent men in order to continue the population.

So...well...yeah, there have been some seriously substantial changes in Hippolyta.

Uhh no there hasn't and here's why:
1) Blond; She was blond pre-Crisis...
2) Leader of barbarians; before Flashpoint they still used spears and swords, they kept themselves as isolated as possible for them to be, fundamentally sexist. So partially enlightened barbarians.
3) Lied to her daughter; big deal WML had her do the same and worse by rigging the Contest resulting in the deaths of some of the competitors and ultimately Artemis.
4) Adulterous affair with Zeus; You appear to not know anything about how many children mythological Zeus had outside of marriage or the lengths he would go to to make them.
5) The booty raids; Which you have to remind yourself that the other option is for Hippolyta to let her people go extinct. And if she can send her own to their graves, why should she even consider the life of someone outside of the sisterhood to be of value?

[Gaelforce]

Uhh no there hasn't and here's why:
1) Blond; She was blond pre-Crisis...
2) Leader of barbarians; before Flashpoint they still used spears and swords, they kept themselves as isolated as possible for them to be, fundamentally sexist. So partially enlightened barbarians.
3) Lied to her daughter; big deal WML had her do the same and worse by rigging the Contest resulting in the deaths of some of the competitors and ultimately Artemis.
4) Adulterous affair with Zeus; You appear to not know anything about how many children mythological Zeus had outside of marriage or the lengths he would go to to make them.
5) The booty raids; Which you have to remind yourself that the other option is for Hippolyta to let her people go extinct. And if she can send her own to their graves, why should she even consider the life of someone outside of the sisterhood to be of value?

1. The question was 'what has changed between last version and this version besides de-aging.' It was a minor quibble, not a major point, but it did change between Vol. 2 and Vol. 3.

2. They also used the Purple Death Ray/Healing Ray, rode winged horses, kept a magnificent library, wore togas, lived in a Grecian paradise, etc. The difference here is huge in everything from architecture to clothing, mythical/techno-mythical to philosophy.

3. I specifically said 'lied to her daughter about her birth' which is direct relation to #4.

4. I know my mythology quite well, thank you :) I wasn't questioning Zeus's infidelities for they are numerous. Hippolyta had an adulterous affair with a god. That's a huge change from the previous 'sculpted her daughter from clay.'

5. Well...no. The option would be for them to seduce men and then go their merry way, or, better yet, for them to be an immortal race. Or for the Amazons to accept orphans ala Donna Troy. Or for Divine Intervention. There are options, both realistic and fantastic (this being a comic book, we should be open to both possibilities). But to seduce innocent men and then slaughter them? Again, right or wrong wasn't the issue. 'What has changed about Hippolyta between volumes 2 and 3' was the question. This is a monumental change in both origin, history, and the peaceful nature of the Amazons of the DCU. Amazons Attack aside (a mini-series panned by just about everyone) Hippolyta and the Amazons didn't wantonly murder men right and left before Azzarello changed it.

Again, I'm not debating what is right or wrong, better or worse, just pointing out the factual differences between the two versions of Hippolyta/Amazons between the old and nuDCU.

[BeccaBlast]

Uhh no there hasn't (substantial changes in Hippolyta) and here's why:
1) Blond; She was blond pre-Crisis...
2) Leader of barbarians; before Flashpoint they still used spears and swords, they kept themselves as isolated as possible for them to be, fundamentally sexist. So partially enlightened barbarians.
3) Lied to her daughter; big deal WML had her do the same and worse by rigging the Contest resulting in the deaths of some of the competitors and ultimately Artemis.
4) Adulterous affair with Zeus; You appear to not know anything about how many children mythological Zeus had outside of marriage or the lengths he would go to to make them.
5) The booty raids; Which you have to remind yourself that the other option is for Hippolyta to let her people go extinct. And if she can send her own to their graves, why should she even consider the life of someone outside of the sisterhood to be of value?

1) A minor change at best; she's been black-haired far longer than not -- but true, a change, if hardly major.
2) By your own standards, this is false; they were highly advanced pre-Crisis and for almost all the time after -- saying that the Amazons are sexist because they followed the dictates of their goddesses is like saying Jews are racist for keeping themselves distinct as a Chosen People. What did you expect them to do -- ignore the deities that rescued them from slavery and death? Sorry if it doesn't fit your often-expressed straw definition of feminism, but you don't get to ignore the facts of the book's history jsut because they don't suit you.
3) If you had bothered to read anything about the background of the book, you would know that this was an extremely unpopular choice, and condemned in much the same fashion the current changes are.
4) Here you're simply ignoring the point -- the change was in the origin of Diana; to pretend that Gaelforce said having adulterous sex with Zeus was a change is completely disingenuous.
5) The point is the CHANGE, right? This is a major CHANGE in how the Amazons have been depicted. Until this reboot, no one had ever posited that the Amazons needed rape and murder to keep the population going. You can agree with the change or not, but it's still a completely major change.

These are all substantial changes in how Hippolyta has been portrayed -- to believe that it isn't different is to subscribe to a version of the Amazons that has never been in the book before. And that's not a matter of opinion; it's simply unsupported by any facts.